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RE: RE: [GreenYes] Scientific Breakthrough Liberates Energy Users from Fossil Fuel
Please see the following web article from the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory for a discussion on the regenerative fuel cell (uses water to produce hydrogen to produce electricity with production of water as a byproduct to be cycled back to hydrogen production  - albeit requiring an external energy source - solar, wind, etc. - to drive the reaction).
It seems the only thing lacking is funding for research and development (big surprise).
-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [GreenYes] Scientific Breakthrough Liberates Energy Users from Fossil Fuel

Peter, You are right, and you are wrong. There is no perpetual motion machine, so you are entirely correct about the law of thermo dynamics (energy is never gained or lost, just changed into a different form). HOWEVER... I don't want you to get misguided into thinking that fuel cells run on hydrogen which was seperated from water through solar or wind (or some other form of clean energy) is not possible. In fact, this technology already works. -- If I were a carbon-pusher I would try and convince the environmental community that there is no solution to creating clean, abundant and entirely sustainable energy for our country. But there is. It's all very simple science, if you want to understand it. -- If you do nothing else, read THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY by Jeremy Rifkin. It explains the technolgy as well as the politics behind it. -- We are at a critical point in the history of this country. ! We are being led down the wrong path by a government that represents the special interests of a small group of people invested into "traditional" energy (traditional - for lack of a better word). They will use our kids as cannonfodder to keep holding on to their profits, they will continue to poison our planet and threaten our health, and they will tax us to build infrastructure so that they can continue to keep us dependent on a commodity that they will sell us! And they will fight anything and anyone that gets in the way of their profits. You will hear a lot of misinformation about hydrogen (as you have been hearing about other issues recently). Solar energy and fuel cells have helped us explore the solar system, and have helped us travel to the moon and back. You know they will run a house or a car, if they can run a spacecraft. It's up to you to get your own information. HYDROGEN WORKS! It's the only positive future we can create for ourselves!!! I am no longer on green-! yes (too much e-mail), but would be happy to communicate on t! his issue with anyone who may be interested. I'm at <>. Please read the book! I don't agree with the proposition that biomass is clean (only renewable, and I'm a purist!), but I go along with 95% of what Jeremy Rifkin has to say. Hope this makes you curious! READ, people! Mischi

original message

Subj: RE: [GreenYes] Scientific Breakthrough Liberates Energy Users from Fossil Fuel Dependence
Date: 12/14/02 5:13:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
Sent from the Internet (Details)

This press release that was posted on E-WIRE describes what it says is a self-contained machine that somehow breaks water into hydrogen and oxygen using less energy than is produced when you burn hydrogen and oxygen to make water.  Anyone who has completed basic high school science courses should know that this is impossible.  If it were possible, you would have a machine that without any net inputs can produce energy - a "perpetual motion" machine.  It would burn hydrogen and oxygen to produce lots of energy, take part of that energy to separate the hydrogen and oxygen again, burn them again to produce lots more energy, and so on. The second law of thermodynamics says that such a machine cannot exist.

Thus, it seems you should be skeptical of press releases you read on E-WIRE.

Peter Spendelow
Oregon Department of Environmental Quality

-----Original Message-----

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:00:05 -0600
From: Stephan Pollard <>
Subject: [GreenYes] Scientific Breakthrough Liberates Energy Users from Fossil Fuel  Dependence

Though folks might be interested in this press release found on E-WIRE.

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