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[GreenYes] Re: 9 new messages in 6 topics - digest


Title: [GreenYes] Re: 9 new messages in 6 topics - digest

has anyone compared the costs/benefits of digesting horse manure vs 
incineration of this material? Thanks. Neil
On Nov 14, 2007, at 3:58 AM, GreenYes group wrote:

>
> GreenYes
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes?hl=en
>
> GreenYes@no.address
>
> Today's topics:
>
> * [horse shit incineration][GreenYes] The special beauty of the 
> FTBOA-Global
> Green project horse manure [horse shit incineration] - 4 messages, 
> 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 74cc72dda3aabe4f?hl=en
> * The FTBOA-Global Green project horse manure [horse manure 
> incineration] - 1
> messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> c385ea9bc2978d62?hl=en
> * http://www.clemson.edu/psapublishing/Pages/ADVS/LL53.pdf - 1 
> messages, 1
> author
http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> df9c5ed210469588?hl=en
> * term excess Phosphorous discussion by Dr Ron E Ney EPA ret. - 1 
> messages, 1
> author
http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 84f7d33a59c4f50b?hl=en
> * need your help... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 21f036b4e26c9e5c?hl=en
> * [GreenYes] Garbage is NOT RenewableEnergy - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 9586d35026c684ed?hl=en
>
> ======================================================================
> ========
> TOPIC: [horse shit incineration][GreenYes] The special beauty of 
> the FTBOA-
> Global Green project horse manure [horse shit incineration]
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 74cc72dda3aabe4f?hl=en
> ======================================================================
> ========
>
> == 1 of 4 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 7:23 am
> From: "Bailey. Ryan"
>
>
> Manure has become a sticky subject.  Regulators and environmental 
> groups
> have taken considerable interest in protecting surface and groundwater
> quality from the runoff impacts of manure from dairies.
>
>
>
> In California's central valley, the Water Board has new 
> requirements for
> dairies that will be phased in over the next five years.  There 
> will be
> a manifest system for any manure sent offsite.  If manure is reused
> onsite (applied to agricultural fields), an elaborate calculation 
> has to
> be made to determine if it is being applied in agronomic proportions
> (more nitrogen/nutrients not applied to lands than will be taken up by
> the specific crop).
>
>
>
> http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/dairies/index.html
>
>
>
> Ryan Bailey
>
> Sacramento County
>
> Business Environmental Resource Center
>
> baileyr@no.address
>
> www.sacberc.org
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address] On
> Behalf Of Alan Muller
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:05 PM
> To: GreenYes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] Re: [horse shit incineration][GreenYes] The 
> special
> beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project horse manure [horse shit
> incineration]
>
>
>
> Oh, my, what a crappy idea....
>
> As far as I know, every sustainable agricultural system in human 
> history
> has relied very significantly on returning manure to the fields/
> gardens
> as nutrients....
>
> (Well, yes, some cultures have used dung for fuel for domestic 
> cooking.
> Tibet?   Plains Indians?)
>
> Larry?  How about some modern incarnation of "buffalo chips?" Why use
> pet coal to make "charcoal" briquettes?  We could convert all those 
> gas
> grill users to freeze-dried, shrink-wrapped, easy-lighting equine
> deposits.....
>
> It's all a matter of selling a lifestyle...
>
> Alan
>
> At 07:53 PM 11/11/2007 -0500, LWheeler45@no.address wrote:
>
>
>
> Published Nov. 11, 2007 7:30 am
> Ocala Star Banner
>
>
>
>
> Every rose has its thorn
>
>
>
>
> Nothing personifies Marion County more than its horse farms. The sight
> of grazing mares and foals against a backdrop of rolling pastures and
> moss-draped oaks creates a picture-postcard portrait of our community
> that is a chamber of commerce dream. It's a living dream that also
> happens to create thousands of jobs and pump hundreds of millions of
> dollars into the local economy each year, not to mention the visitors
> and sportsmen it attracts from the world over.
>
> But, as the old proverb goes, every rose has its thorn.
>
> The thorn, in this case, is mounds upon mounds of horse manure 
> produced
> by the 50,000-plus horses that make Marion County the horse capital of
> the world. The county's 700-800 horse farms, in fact, produce an
> estimated 400,000 tons a year of the stinking stuff, about one-
> fourth of
> which the farms currently can't dispose of through existing 
> methods. And
> that 100,000-ton surplus is more than an unsightly, odorous 
> nuisance. It
> is an environmental hazard that pollutes our groundwater supply.
>
> For the past decade the horse industry hereabouts has been on notice
> that it needed to do something about disposing of the excess manure 
> in a
> environmentally responsible way. The pressure to finally do that is 
> now
> intense as the county appears ready to pass a stringent Springs
> Protection Act that will forbid stockpiling horse waste; enactment of
> the ordinance could come as early as late 2008. After much discussion
> and at least one failed, $2 million foray a few years back to address
> the manure quandary, the Florida Thoroughbred Breeders' and Owners'
> Association may have found a workable solution. It is a solution that
> proponents believe will be not only environmentally beneficial, but
> economically beneficial as well. All the better.
>
> FTBOA announced earlier this month it has formed a partnership with
> Georgia-based Global Green Solutions, known as Florida Greensteam 
> Equine
> Energy, to build an incineration plant that would burn horse 
> "muck," the
> mix of manure, urine and stable bedding the farms produce. During the
> super-hot burning process, steam would be produced that, in turn, 
> would
> generate electricity. The Florida Greensteam partners then hope to 
> sell
> that electricity to area power companies like Ocala Electric 
> Utility and
> Florida Progress Energy.
>
> FTBOA Executive Vice President Dick Hancock said the $20 million plant
> is expected to produce 10-12 megawatts of electricity, based on the
> 100,000 tons of excess horse waste. That, he said, is about enough to
> meet the power needs of a city the size of Williston. Hancock added 
> that
> its developers believe the proposed plant could ultimately handle 
> twice
> as much waste as is now planned, and the partners might approach local
> governments about taking on wood waste such as construction and yard
> debris. That could be a sorely needed relief valve for the county, in
> particular, as it struggles to make room at its fast-filling Baseline
> Landfill.
>
> The special beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project, at this 
> point, is
> that it is not asking for on any governmental funding to move forward.
> Although the partnership is applying for some state and federal
> alternative energy grants, it is looking to revenues from the sale of
> its electrical generation to pay off the two parties' investments.
>
> As long as Marion County remains the horse capital of the world - 
> and we
> pray that it does forever - there will be mountains of horse manure to
> contend with. Until now, it has been an accepted, if unpleasant,
> inconvenience and pollutant. But with protecting our diminishing
> groundwater supply from continuing pollution and unavoidable 
> imperative,
> something had to give.
>
> It is refreshing the FTBOA has not reneged on its long-standing pledge
> to find an acceptable, environmentally responsible solution to its
> organic pollution problem. At the same time, we understand this is 
> a new
> and largely untested technology that may take time to get the kinks 
> out
> of completely. Unfortunately, time isn't something the horse 
> industry or
> our groundwater supply, and particularly our precious springs, have in
> any semblance of abundance.
>
> Every rose has its thorn, but if the FTBOA plan works, maybe our rose
> will smell just a little bit sweeter and our water will be little bit
> cleaner.
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> See what's new at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?
> NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170>
> and Make AOL Your Homepage
> <http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169> .
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______
> COUNTY OF SACRAMENTO EMAIL DISCLAIMER:
> This email and any attachments thereto may contain private, 
> confidential, and
> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any 
> review,
> copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) 
> by other
> than the County of Sacramento or the intended recipient is strictly 
> prohibited.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
> immediately
> and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email 
> and any
> attachments thereto.
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______
>
>
>
>
> == 2 of 4 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 8:03 am
> From: Naomi Yaeger
>
>
> Please take away the S*** word...we don't need it...MANURE words fine
>
> "Bailey. Ryan" <baileyr@no.address> wrote:               Manure 
> has become a sticky subject.  Regulators and environmental groups 
> have taken considerable interest in protecting surface and 
> groundwater quality from the runoff impacts of manure from dairies.
>
>   In California's central valley, the Water Board has new 
> requirements for dairies that will be phased in over the next five 
> years.  There will be a manifest system for any manure sent 
> offsite.  If manure is reused onsite (applied to agricultural 
> fields), an elaborate calculation has to be made to determine if it 
> is being applied in agronomic proportions (more nitrogen/nutrients 
> not applied to lands than will be taken up by the specific crop).
>
>   http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/dairies/index.html
>
>     Ryan Bailey
>   Sacramento County
>   Business Environmental Resource Center
>   baileyr@no.address
>   www.sacberc.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>   From: GreenYes@no.address 
> [mailto:GreenYes@no.address] On Behalf Of Alan Muller
>  Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:05 PM
>  To: GreenYes@no.address
>  Subject: [GreenYes] Re: [horse shit incineration][GreenYes] The 
> special beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project horse manure 
> [horse shit incineration]
>
>
>   Oh, my, what a crappy idea....
>
>  As far as I know, every sustainable agricultural system in human 
> history has relied very significantly on returning manure to the 
> fields/gardens as nutrients....
>
>  (Well, yes, some cultures have used dung for fuel for domestic 
> cooking.  Tibet?   Plains Indians?)
>
>  Larry?  How about some modern incarnation of "buffalo chips?" Why 
> use pet coal to make "charcoal" briquettes?  We could convert all 
> those gas grill users to freeze-dried, shrink-wrapped, easy-
> lighting equine deposits.....
>
>  It's all a matter of selling a lifestyle...
>
>  Alan
>
>  At 07:53 PM 11/11/2007 -0500, LWheeler45@no.address wrote:
>
>
>   Published Nov. 11, 2007 7:30 am
>    Ocala Star Banner
>
>
>   Every rose has its thorn
>
>  Nothing personifies Marion County more than its horse farms. The 
> sight of grazing mares and foals against a backdrop of rolling 
> pastures and moss-draped oaks creates a picture-postcard portrait 
> of our community that is a chamber of commerce dream. It's a living 
> dream that also happens to create thousands of jobs and pump 
> hundreds of millions of dollars into the local economy each year, 
> not to mention the visitors and sportsmen it attracts from the 
> world over.
>
>  But, as the old proverb goes, every rose has its thorn.
>
>  The thorn, in this case, is mounds upon mounds of horse manure 
> produced by the 50,000-plus horses that make Marion County the 
> horse capital of the world. The county's 700-800 horse farms, in 
> fact, produce an estimated 400,000 tons a year of the stinking 
> stuff, about one-fourth of which the farms currently can't dispose 
> of through existing methods. And that 100,000-ton surplus is more 
> than an unsightly, odorous nuisance. It is an environmental hazard 
> that pollutes our groundwater supply.
>
>  For the past decade the horse industry hereabouts has been on 
> notice that it needed to do something about disposing of the excess 
> manure in a environmentally responsible way. The pressure to 
> finally do that is now intense as the county appears ready to pass 
> a stringent Springs Protection Act that will forbid stockpiling 
> horse waste; enactment of the ordinance could come as early as late 
> 2008. After much discussion and at least one failed, $2 million 
> foray a few years back to address the manure quandary, the Florida 
> Thoroughbred Breeders' and Owners' Association may have found a 
> workable solution. It is a solution that proponents believe will be 
> not only environmentally beneficial, but economically beneficial as 
> well. All the better.
>
>  FTBOA announced earlier this month it has formed a partnership 
> with Georgia-based Global Green Solutions, known as Florida 
> Greensteam Equine Energy, to build an incineration plant that would 
> burn horse "muck," the mix of manure, urine and stable bedding the 
> farms produce. During the super-hot burning process, steam would be 
> produced that, in turn, would generate electricity. The Florida 
> Greensteam partners then hope to sell that electricity to area 
> power companies like Ocala Electric Utility and Florida Progress 
> Energy.
>
>  FTBOA Executive Vice President Dick Hancock said the $20 million 
> plant is expected to produce 10-12 megawatts of electricity, based 
> on the 100,000 tons of excess horse waste. That, he said, is about 
> enough to meet the power needs of a city the size of Williston. 
> Hancock added that its developers believe the proposed plant could 
> ultimately handle twice as much waste as is now planned, and the 
> partners might approach local governments about taking on wood 
> waste such as construction and yard debris. That could be a sorely 
> needed relief valve for the county, in particular, as it struggles 
> to make room at its fast-filling Baseline Landfill.
>
>  The special beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project, at this 
> point, is that it is not asking for on any governmental funding to 
> move forward. Although the partnership is applying for some state 
> and federal alternative energy grants, it is looking to revenues 
> from the sale of its electrical generation to pay off the two 
> parties' investments.
>
>  As long as Marion County remains the horse capital of the world - 
> and we pray that it does forever - there will be mountains of horse 
> manure to contend with. Until now, it has been an accepted, if 
> unpleasant, inconvenience and pollutant. But with protecting our 
> diminishing groundwater supply from continuing pollution and 
> unavoidable imperative, something had to give.
>
>  It is refreshing the FTBOA has not reneged on its long-standing 
> pledge to find an acceptable, environmentally responsible solution 
> to its organic pollution problem. At the same time, we understand 
> this is a new and largely untested technology that may take time to 
> get the kinks out of completely. Unfortunately, time isn't 
> something the horse industry or our groundwater supply, and 
> particularly our precious springs, have in any semblance of abundance.
>
>  Every rose has its thorn, but if the FTBOA plan works, maybe our 
> rose will smell just a little bit sweeter and our water will be 
> little bit cleaner.
>
>  Leonard
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>   See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______
> COUNTY OF SACRAMENTO EMAIL DISCLAIMER:
> This email and any attachments thereto may contain private, 
> confidential, and
> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any 
> review,
> copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) 
> by other
> than the County of Sacramento or the intended recipient is strictly 
> prohibited.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender 
> immediately
> and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email 
> and any
> attachments thereto.
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>           "There are two kinds of people in the world,
> those who think they can and those who think
> they can't. And both are right." Henry Ford
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> == 3 of 4 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 1:01 pm
> From: "Tom Rhodes"
>
>
>
>
> re: horse shit incineration....
>
> Pardon me, but should we not be using a more, shall we say, 
> "politically
> correct" word rather than the term, "horse shit"?
> I suggest that we use the term "equine shit". It just sounds nicer.
> Anyway, I think the use of manure as an alternative energy source is a
> great idea. I heard about a farmer in North Carolina that covered a
> spiral length of black flexable water pipe with a pile of manure and
> piped water through it to creat a continual supply of hot water for 
> his
> home.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address] On
> Behalf Of Bailey. Ryan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 10:24 AM
> To: GreenYes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] Re: [horse shit incineration][GreenYes] The 
> special
> beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project horse manure [horse shit
> incineration]
>
>
>
> Manure has become a sticky subject.  Regulators and environmental 
> groups
> have taken considerable interest in protecting surface and groundwater
> quality from the runoff impacts of manure from dairies.
>
>
>
> In California's central valley, the Water Board has new 
> requirements for
> dairies that will be phased in over the next five years.  There 
> will be
> a manifest system for any manure sent offsite.  If manure is reused
> onsite (applied to agricultural fields), an elaborate calculation 
> has to
> be made to determine if it is being applied in agronomic proportions
> (more nitrogen/nutrients not applied to lands than will be taken up by
> the specific crop).
>
>
>
> http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/dairies/index.html
>
>
>
> Ryan Bailey
>
> Sacramento County
>
> Business Environmental Resource Center
>
> baileyr@no.address
>
> www.sacberc.org
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address] On
> Behalf Of Alan Muller
> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 6:05 PM
> To: GreenYes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] Re: [horse shit incineration][GreenYes] The 
> special
> beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project horse manure [horse shit
> incineration]
>
>
>
> Oh, my, what a crappy idea....
>
> As far as I know, every sustainable agricultural system in human 
> history
> has relied very significantly on returning manure to the fields/
> gardens
> as nutrients....
>
> (Well, yes, some cultures have used dung for fuel for domestic 
> cooking.
> Tibet?   Plains Indians?)
>
> Larry?  How about some modern incarnation of "buffalo chips?" Why use
> pet coal to make "charcoal" briquettes?  We could convert all those 
> gas
> grill users to freeze-dried, shrink-wrapped, easy-lighting equine
> deposits.....
>
> It's all a matter of selling a lifestyle...
>
> Alan
>
> At 07:53 PM 11/11/2007 -0500, LWheeler45@no.address wrote:
>
>
>
> Published Nov. 11, 2007 7:30 am
> Ocala Star Banner
>
>
>
>
> Every rose has its thorn
>
>
>
>
> Nothing personifies Marion County more than its horse farms. The sight
> of grazing mares and foals against a backdrop of rolling pastures and
> moss-draped oaks creates a picture-postcard portrait of our community
> that is a chamber of commerce dream. It's a living dream that also
> happens to create thousands of jobs and pump hundreds of millions of
> dollars into the local economy each year, not to mention the visitors
> and sportsmen it attracts from the world over.
>
> But, as the old proverb goes, every rose has its thorn.
>
> The thorn, in this case, is mounds upon mounds of horse manure 
> produced
> by the 50,000-plus horses that make Marion County the horse capital of
> the world. The county's 700-800 horse farms, in fact, produce an
> estimated 400,000 tons a year of the stinking stuff, about one-
> fourth of
> which the farms currently can't dispose of through existing 
> methods. And
> that 100,000-ton surplus is more than an unsightly, odorous 
> nuisance. It
> is an environmental hazard that pollutes our groundwater supply.
>
> For the past decade the horse industry hereabouts has been on notice
> that it needed to do something about disposing of the excess manure 
> in a
> environmentally responsible way. The pressure to finally do that is 
> now
> intense as the county appears ready to pass a stringent Springs
> Protection Act that will forbid stockpiling horse waste; enactment of
> the ordinance could come as early as late 2008. After much discussion
> and at least one failed, $2 million foray a few years back to address
> the manure quandary, the Florida Thoroughbred Breeders' and Owners'
> Association may have found a workable solution. It is a solution that
> proponents believe will be not only environmentally beneficial, but
> economically beneficial as well. All the better.
>
> FTBOA announced earlier this month it has formed a partnership with
> Georgia-based Global Green Solutions, known as Florida Greensteam 
> Equine
> Energy, to build an incineration plant that would burn horse 
> "muck," the
> mix of manure, urine and stable bedding the farms produce. During the
> super-hot burning process, steam would be produced that, in turn, 
> would
> generate electricity. The Florida Greensteam partners then hope to 
> sell
> that electricity to area power companies like Ocala Electric 
> Utility and
> Florida Progress Energy.
>
> FTBOA Executive Vice President Dick Hancock said the $20 million plant
> is expected to produce 10-12 megawatts of electricity, based on the
> 100,000 tons of excess horse waste. That, he said, is about enough to
> meet the power needs of a city the size of Williston. Hancock added 
> that
> its developers believe the proposed plant could ultimately handle 
> twice
> as much waste as is now planned, and the partners might approach local
> governments about taking on wood waste such as construction and yard
> debris. That could be a sorely needed relief valve for the county, in
> particular, as it struggles to make room at its fast-filling Baseline
> Landfill.
>
> The special beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project, at this 
> point, is
> that it is not asking for on any governmental funding to move forward.
> Although the partnership is applying for some state and federal
> alternative energy grants, it is looking to revenues from the sale of
> its electrical generation to pay off the two parties' investments.
>
> As long as Marion County remains the horse capital of the world - 
> and we
> pray that it does forever - there will be mountains of horse manure to
> contend with. Until now, it has been an accepted, if unpleasant,
> inconvenience and pollutant. But with protecting our diminishing
> groundwater supply from continuing pollution and unavoidable 
> imperative,
> something had to give.
>
> It is refreshing the FTBOA has not reneged on its long-standing pledge
> to find an acceptable, environmentally responsible solution to its
> organic pollution problem. At the same time, we understand this is 
> a new
> and largely untested technology that may take time to get the kinks 
> out
> of completely. Unfortunately, time isn't something the horse 
> industry or
> our groundwater supply, and particularly our precious springs, have in
> any semblance of abundance.
>
> Every rose has its thorn, but if the FTBOA plan works, maybe our rose
> will smell just a little bit sweeter and our water will be little bit
> cleaner.
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> See what's new at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?
> NCID=AOLCMP00300000001170>
> and Make AOL Your Homepage
> <http://www.aol.com/mksplash.adp?NCID=AOLCMP00300000001169> .
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __
> ____
> COUNTY OF SACRAMENTO EMAIL DISCLAIMER:
> This email and any attachments thereto may contain private,
> confidential, and
> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
> review,
> copying, or distribution of this email (or any attachments thereto) by
> other
> than the County of Sacramento or the intended recipient is strictly
> prohibited.
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender
> immediately
> and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email 
> and any
> attachments thereto.
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __
> _____
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> == 4 of 4 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 1:17 pm
> From: "Wayne Turner"
>
>
> Tom Rhodes wrote (and eloquently, I might add):
>
> re: horse shit incineration....
>
> Pardon me, but should we not be using a more, shall we say, 
> "politically correct" word rather than the term, "horse shit"?
> I suggest that we use the term "equine shit". It just sounds nicer.
>
> *******************************************************************
>
> Thank you Tom for talking us down from the ledge and bringing some 
> much needed levity to this otherwise terse listserv.  We can only 
> hope that the offended sensibilities may still find some humor in 
> this little sidebar.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================================================================
> ========
> TOPIC: The FTBOA-Global Green project horse manure [horse manure 
> incineration]
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> c385ea9bc2978d62?hl=en
> ======================================================================
> ========
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 7:39 am
> From: "Reindl, John"
>
>
> Besides the nitrogen issue, we have a problem in my county with 
> excess levels of phosphorus in the soil from the manure of some 
> 125,000 head of dairy cattle. The plants can't use it all, but 
> benefit from the nitrogen and organic material from the manure. The 
> excess phosphorus washes off the land into our streams and lakes 
> and causes excessive growth of algae and lake weeds. We are known 
> as the Four Lakes region due to four large lakes around our main 
> city, and are trying to improve their water quality. For the last 2
> + years, my main task has been to try to come up with a better 
> solution to this problem and it is a challenging issue.
>
> It's a bit off the main focus of this list, but if you or someone 
> else you know wants to see what we are looking at, our web page is 
> at http://www.danewaters.com/management/ManureTaskForce.aspx
>
> We also invite any comments on our work or other potential 
> solutions. So far, we have not come up with things that look 
> particularly promising.
>
> John Reindl, Recycling Manager
> Dane County, WI
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address]
> On Behalf Of Bailey. Ryan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:24 AM
> To: GreenYes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] Re: [horse shit incineration][GreenYes] The 
> special beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project horse manure 
> [horse shit incineration]
>
>
>
> Manure has become a sticky subject.  Regulators and environmental 
> groups have taken considerable interest in protecting surface and 
> groundwater quality from the runoff impacts of manure from dairies.
>
>
>
> In California's central valley, the Water Board has new 
> requirements for dairies that will be phased in over the next five 
> years.  There will be a manifest system for any manure sent 
> offsite.  If manure is reused onsite (applied to agricultural 
> fields), an elaborate calculation has to be made to determine if it 
> is being applied in agronomic proportions (more nitrogen/nutrients 
> not applied to lands than will be taken up by the specific crop).
>
>
>
> http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/dairies/index.html
>
>
>
> Ryan Bailey
>
> Sacramento County
>
> Business Environmental Resource Center
>
> baileyr@no.address
>
> www.sacberc.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================================================================
> ========
> TOPIC: http://www.clemson.edu/psapublishing/Pages/ADVS/LL53.pdf
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> df9c5ed210469588?hl=en
> ======================================================================
> ========
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 3:06 pm
> From: LWheeler45@no.address
>
>
>  (http://www.clemson.edu/psapublishing/Pages/ADVS/LL53.pdf)
>
> Shame   Shame  Shame  such lack of green action on this issue.
>
> Leonard
>
>
> In a message dated 11/13/2007 4:39:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> WAYNET@no.address writes:
>
> Tom Rhodes wrote (and  eloquently, I might add):
>
> re: horse shit incineration....
>
> Pardon me, but should we not be using a more, shall we  say, 
> "politically
> correct" word rather than the term, "horse  shit"?
> I suggest that we use the term "equine shit". It just sounds  nicer.
>
> *******************************************************************
>
> Thank you Tom for talking us down from the ledge and  bringing some 
> much
> needed levity to this otherwise terse  listserv.  We can only hope 
> that the
> offended sensibilities may  still find some humor in this little 
> sidebar.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at http://
> www.aol.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================================================================
> ========
> TOPIC: term excess Phosphorous discussion by Dr Ron E Ney EPA ret.
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 84f7d33a59c4f50b?hl=en
> ======================================================================
> ========
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 4:11 pm
> From: LWheeler45@no.address
>
>
>
> To:        Dean R.  Kirby Barrick, _kbarrick@no.address
> (mailto:kbarrick@no.address)
>
> From:    Ronald E. Ney, Jr.,  PhD
>
> Subject: P and N
>
> Hello Dean Barrick,  I am having trouble with scientific terms or 
> maybe
> non-scientific terms that  appear to be totally incorrect and was 
> hoping you could
> give me some answers. I  saw the terms used in a Total Maximum 
> Daily Load
> (TMDL) draft. I will present  what I deem as incorrect science and 
> my questions
> will follow. I sent similar  comments to the TMDL group and to 
> others and they
> would not respond.
> I have a problem  with  "Orange County Parks Phosphorus (Measured as
> Phosphate)".
> 1.      How can  phosphorus be measure as a phosphate?
> 2.      To  measure the element phosphorus, as a phosphate, 
> wouldn't you
> being synthesizing  a new chemical compound in order to measure it?
> 3.      If it  were possible to measure phosphorus, as a phosphate, 
> wouldn't
> you be measuring  all phosphate compounds including phosphate 
> pesticides,
> phosphate fertilizer,  etc.?
> I also have a  problem with the term "(measured as water soluble 
> organic
> nitrogen)". I  was under the scientific impression that organic 
> chemicals
> contained carbon. I  do not think fertilizers contain organic 
> nitrogen compounds but
> inorganic  compounds. This is another reason why that I don't like 
> the terms
> water-soluble  organic nitrogen or water insoluble organic nitrogen.
> Do you think they  really mean an organic compound containing the 
> carbon atom
> or inorganic  compounds which contain no carbon atoms?
> "Orange County  Parks, including Trimble, Roosevelt, Nichols, 
> Magnolia Park,
> Chapin Station,  Winter Garden Station, and County Line Station. 
> OCEPD and
> Parks Department  agreed to reduce use of phosphorus fertilizers 
> for each new
> lawn care and  maintenance contract issued on all park facilities. 
> Agreement
> includes use of  reduced phosphorus (measured as phosphate) between 
> 0 - 5 % on
> turf areas  (athletic fields, reacreational and waterfront park). 
> Higher
> percentages of  phosphorus are allowable in localized areas (i.e. 
> flower beds, trees
> and  shrubs) needing greater amounts on an as needed basis."
> 1.How does one  reduce elemental P when it is not in fertilizers?
> 2. Isn't it true  that there is a phosphorus compound present in 
> fertilizers
> and not elemental  P?
> How is it possible  to reduced phosphorus (measured as phosphate) 
> when it is
> chemically  impossible?
> Isn't it true that  one can measure total phosphorus (TP) from a 
> phosphate
> but not the way it is  expressed in 3 above?
> How can one reduce  the percentages of phosphorus when a phosphate 
> is present
> in  fertilizer?
> Do you think they  mean 0 to 0.5% instead of 0 to 5%?
> Regards,
>
> Dr. Ron Ney
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
> In a message dated 11/13/2007 6:38:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> Reindl@no.address writes:
>
> Besides the  nitrogen issue, we have a problem in my county with 
> excess
> levels of  phosphorus in the soil from the manure of some 125,000 
> head of dairy
> cattle.  The plants can't use it all, but benefit from the nitrogen 
> and organic
> material from the manure. The excess  phosphorus washes off the 
> land into our
> streams and lakes  and causes excessive growth of algae and lake 
> weeds. We are
> known as the Four  Lakes region due to four large lakes around our 
> main city,
> and are trying to  improve their water quality. For the last 2+ 
> years, my
> main task has been to  try to come up with a better solution to 
> this problem and
> it is a challenging  issue.
>
> It's a bit off the  main focus of this list, but if you or someone 
> else you
> know wants to see what  we are looking at, our web page is at
> _http://www.danewaters.com/management/ManureTaskForce.aspx_
> (http://www.danewaters.com/management/ManureTaskForce.aspx)
>
> We also invite any  comments on our work or other potential 
> solutions. So
> far, we have not come up  with things that look particularly 
> promising.
>
> John Reindl,  Recycling Manager
> Dane County, WI
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GreenYes@no.address  [mailto:GreenYes@no.address]
> On Behalf
> Of Bailey.  Ryan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:24 AM
> To:  GreenYes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] Re: [horse shit  incineration][GreenYes] The 
> special
> beauty of the FTBOA-Global Green project  horse manure [horse shit 
> incineration]
>
>
>
> Manure has become a  sticky subject.  Regulators and environmental 
> groups
> have taken  considerable interest in protecting surface and 
> groundwater quality
> from the  runoff impacts of manure from dairies.
> In California's  central valley, the Water Board has new 
> requirements for
> dairies that will  be phased in over the next five years.  There 
> will be a
> manifest system  for any manure sent offsite.  If manure is reused 
> onsite (applied
> to  agricultural fields), an elaborate calculation has to be made 
> to determine
> if it is being applied in agronomic proportions (more nitrogen/
> nutrients not
> applied to lands than will be taken up by the specific  crop).
> _http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/dairies/index.html_
> (http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/rwqcb5/water_issues/dairies/index.html)
>
> Ryan  Bailey
> Sacramento  County
> Business  Environmental Resource Center
> baileyr@no.address
> _www.sacberc.org_ (http://www.sacberc.org/)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at http://
> www.aol.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================================================================
> ========
> TOPIC: need your help...
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 21f036b4e26c9e5c?hl=en
> ======================================================================
> ========
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 10:40 pm
> From: "Pat Kiel"
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I need to buy some stuff at
> http://boxedartmembers.com/phpshop/payment-method.php (100 $) but 
> my credit
> card has been failed when I've tried to checkout. I've purchased by my
> credit card before, but I don't know why it's declined now. Could 
> you please
> purchase it for me? I'm in hurry and it's very important for me, 
> I'll pay
> your cash as soon as I receive your reply. this website offers some
> pre-designed templates for websites and it offers a promotion for 1 
> week, it
> will send you a user name and password for accessing the download 
> page. The
> only thing I need is that user name and password, so please send 
> them by
> email to me after purchase. it would be kind of you,
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
>
> ======================================================================
> ========
> TOPIC: [GreenYes] Garbage is NOT RenewableEnergy
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/
> 9586d35026c684ed?hl=en
> ======================================================================
> ========
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Tues, Nov 13 2007 10:44 pm
> From: "Linda Christopher"
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> This is not an accurate characterization of the campaign and GRRN's 
> position.
>
> We do not say methane capture is bad. On the contrary, a 
> centerpiece of our campaign is that it should be mandatory.  Visit 
> http://www.grrn.org/landfill/notrenewableenergy/mandatecapture.html
>
> Our position is that methane from garbage is not "renewable" and 
> therefore it should not receive the same financial incentives given 
> to wind and solar power.  http://www.grrn.org/landfill/
> notrenewableenergy/index.html   This is not a controversial position.
>
> The greatest barrier to achieving Zero Waste is not technological. 
> No, not at all.  That's the easy part. If industry can make a 
> Blackberry with more processing power than the computers that sent 
> the Apollo astronauts to the moon, then we can and will design 
> waste out of the system.
>
> Then what's our challenge?  The greatest barrier to Zero Waste is 
> the institutional, cultural, and economic incentives embedded in 
> the fabric of our society that encourage and reward wasting.  Those 
> must be reversed and should not be underestimated.
>
> Therefore, the costs of pollution remediation and managing the 
> downstream impacts of garbage generation should not come out of the 
> pot of money set aside to develop renewable sources of wind and 
> solar energy. It is laughable to produce garbage, bury it, capture 
> the methane and then claim this activity is a "carbon offset" that 
> makes it OK to drive your car around.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Linda Christopher
> Executive Director
> GrassRoots Recycling Network
> www.grrn.org
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Levy, Tania
>   To: OrganicsOutOfLandfills@no.address ; 
> crra_members@no.address ; p2@no.address ; p2tech@no.address
> lakes.net ; sustainablebusiness@no.address ; ZERI-
> US@no.address ; ZeroWasteCommunities@no.address ; 
> ZWBusiness@no.address ; zwia@no.address
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:31 AM
>   Subject: RE: [OrganicsOutOfLandfills] [GreenYes] Garbage is NOT 
> RenewableEnergy
>
>
>
>   Our battle was to not give carbon credits to landfills to bury 
> "sequester" organics.
>   But using the methane from what's already there - why not?
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: OrganicsOutOfLandfills@no.address 
> [mailto:OrganicsOutOfLandfills@no.address]On Behalf Of Mark 
> Bowers
>     Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 3:59 PM
>     To: crra_members@no.address; 
> OrganicsOutOfLandfills@no.address; p2@no.address; p2tech@no.address
> lakes.net; sustainablebusiness@no.address; ZERI-
> US@no.address; ZeroWasteCommunities@no.address; 
> ZWBusiness@no.address; zwia@no.address
>     Subject: Re: [OrganicsOutOfLandfills] [GreenYes] Garbage is NOT 
> RenewableEnergy
>
>
>     Folks, I think you are throwing the baby out with the bath 
> water, here.
>
>     By trying to impose an overly idealized notion of how waste is 
> created and handled you are proposing to financially punish 
> environmentally beneficial projects that convert methane to usable 
> forms of energy.
>
>     Our Power Generation Facility takes methane captured from a 
> landfill that closed 14 years ago, combines it with digester gas 
> methane from our sewage treatment process and makes electricity.  
> If not produced this way, that electricity would have to come from 
> a power plant fired by natural gas or nuclear fission.  And you're 
> saying that what we are doing is bad and that we shouldn't get a 
> small financial boost from selling the associated RECs?
>
>     Just like "stuff" happens, methane happens. I think that in 
> taking such a broad-based position on RECs you risk damaging 
> worthwhile energy capture projects and risk alienating current 
> allies--like me!
>
>     Stop--Think
>
>     Mark Bowers
>     Solid Waste Program Manager
>     City of Sunnyvale, California
>
>
>     On 11/12/2007 at 3:13 PM, Gary Liss <gary@no.address> wrote:
>
>     Apologies for Cross-postings
>
>
>
>       From: "Eric Lombardi" <eric@no.address>
>       Subject: [GreenYes] please spread the word ... don't buy 
> garbage-based REC's!!
>       Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:38:06 -0700
>
>       GRRN has launched a new campaign about buying "renewable 
> energy credits" (REC's) that are NOT from garbage-based energy, 
> such as landfill gas or incineration.   The campaign, "Garbage is 
> NOT Renewable Energy", is described briefly in the press release 
> below, which I would encourage everyone to forward to anyone you 
> know that is buying REC's.   Also, send folks to the GRRN website 
> where there is a LOT more good technical information on this topic. 
> ( http://www.grrn.org/landfill/notrenewableenergy/index.html)
>
>       Grazie,
>
>       Eric
>
>       For Immediate Release-- Friday, September 14, 2007
>
>       National Movement to Stop Buying Energy from Garbage:
>       Zero Waste Advocates say renewable energy credits may be 
> supporting the destruction of natural resources and the polluting 
> practices of burning and burying garbage.
>
>       The GrassRoots Recycling Network (GRRN) warns that well-
> meaning public and business leaders working to offset their carbon 
> emissions may be inadvertently spending money on renewable energy 
> credits (RECs) that support the destruction of natural resources 
> and the polluting practices of burning and burying garbage.
>       Landfill and incineration industries have lobbied to have the 
> greenhouse gas emissions from their facilities considered "green 
> energy," worthy of tax credits similar to the ones given to solar 
> and wind energy projects. In fact, "garbage-to-energy" is now being 
> legally classified in numerous states as a "renewable" energy 
> source. Eric Lombardi, GRRN Board President says "This is in direct 
> opposition to the goal of the Zero Waste Movement -- to eliminate 
> waste, not enshrine it as a renewable resource."
>
>       GRRN Board Member Carly Weir says "Giving tax credits and 
> subsidies to the garbage industry competes against wind, solar and 
> recycling projects, and creates a financial reward for producing 
> garbage and destroying natural resources. In the battle against 
> climate change, we need to act decisively against waste and 
> greenhouse gas emissions by eliminating, not just reducing these 
> sources, and giving priority to clean, carbon-free energy."
>
>       GRRN asserts that ultimately reducing waste is still the best 
> decision for the environment and the economy. Communities and 
> institutions would be better served by committing to zero waste 
> goals and keeping compostable organics out of the landfill in order 
> to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Additionally consumers and 
> institutions can purchase RECs from carbon offset companies that 
> provide waste-free energy.
>
>       GRRN has a list of waste-free carbon offset and renewable 
> energy providers along with action steps for college and 
> institutions at www.grrn.org.
>
>       For more information visit www.grrn.org for facts and 
> supporting documentation.
>       For quotes or information contact:
>
>       Eric Lombardi, GRRN Board President  (303) 444-6634
>       Carly Weir, GRRN Board Secretary (970) 668-5703
>       Linda Christopher, GRRN Executive Director  (707) 321-7883
>
>
>     Gary Liss
>     916-652-7850
>     Fax: 916-652-0485
>     www.garyliss.com
>
>
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