[GreenYes] Re: [CRRA] Plastics in the ocean

[Neil Seldman <nseldman@no.address>]

Jon thanks for your thoughts. I think Paul Palmer would be a good  
contributor to your planned book. Neil
On Nov 6, 2006, at 6:26 PM, J. Michael Huls wrote:

> Neil,
>
> I think the primary intent of the article of the researchers  
> describing the
> dissappearance of fish from the oceans, was to spark some action  
> from people
> on the basis that our food supply was disappearing.  It won't be  
> that fish
> will disappear, as there are many fish that we don't eat.  But the  
> diversity
> of the oceans will be severely degraded, and along with that the  
> ecosystem
> itself will be significantly harmed.  I guess it always helps to  
> ring the
> alarm that our food is going...away.
>
> Nonetheless, the articles appearing about food shortage and  
> plastics in the
> oceans is timely, and should be discussed in the context of past
> degradation.  Degradation is not recent phenomena but something  
> that has
> been occuring for decades if not centuries.  As an example, John  
> Muir wrote
> about 100 years ago about the skies being covered for days in Southern
> California with many types and species of migrating birds.  Today,  
> in So Cal
> we are lucky to see sparrows and black birds (a coule of very hardy
> species), and at specific estuaries, a few other species such as  
> ducks. One
> bird we see a lot of is sea gull, a species that has made quite a  
> living at
> our open dumps (and I mean landfills).
>
> Speaking of estuary, little more than 2% to 4% of the original  
> estauary in
> Southern California remains, which has had an even greater devestating
> impact upon the oceans since the Southern California esturine  
> environment
> had to be one of the more important areas in the world (they call it
> Mediterrean because it only occurs in one other spot).  This damage  
> to our
> estuaries is probably even more critical than the plastics; but  
> again, it is
> the issue of so many impacts -- loss of estuary, loss of diversity in
> species, plastics, pesticides, toxic chemicals, over fishing, air  
> pollution
> deposition on oceans, etc -- that make it so difficult for biological
> systems to operate.  The one thing that is curiously reflected in the
> articles on global warming, fishing, and plastics is that every  
> author makes
> it a point to state that the condition is reversible.  I don't know  
> about
> that.  We're on a moving train that has gathered a lot of inertia  
> over the
> past 50 years since the advent of the throwaway ethic that Neil and  
> I wrote
> about in 1980 for a Environment Magazine.    This inertia is based on
> wasting as the foundation of our culture and economy.  And that  
> will be a
> significant hurdle to jump given the fact that our society is no  
> longer
> manufacturing based (70% of our industry has moved elsewhere), but  
> instead
> consumption based.  It seems about 40 years ago, our nation  
> consumed about
> 40% of the world's resourcs, and yet today, we are only consuming 25%.
> Either we are consuming less (I doubt that) or the rest of the  
> world is
> catching up to our grandiose lifestyle.  And our curious mechanisms of
> environmental protection.
>
> In fact, I am beginning a book on the American Environmental  
> Experience,
> much of which is characterized by cover up, dismissal of impacts, and
> leaving to the future the gross negative impacts, just so we can  
> make a
> buck.  It's not pretty, and certainly so many other countries  
> around the
> world are looking at what a marvelous job we're doing -- opps, did  
> I forget
> to mention the DDT dumps right off the coast at Palos Verdes, or  
> the sand we
> cannot dredge in the Mississippi River Delta due to toxic matter  
> that we
> don't want to stir up, or the BKK dump in West Covina that was used to
> co-dispose chemical hzardous waste and MSW (to act like a sponge),  
> or the
> many other myriad oftoxic travesties that are known by certain  
> leaders, just
> not by the public?
>
> To that end, if anyone would like to be part of this book, let me  
> know. It
> is being proposed for a national magazine and I would like many more
> examples of the troubles that I believe lie ahead of us and that  
> should be
> documented.  At least for others around the world to learn of and  
> avoid.
> Oh, yes, all of this is reversible...
>
>
> J. Michael Huls, REA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Seldman [mailto:nseldman@no.address]
> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 2:22 PM
> To: Nancy Strauss
> Cc: tedd@no.address; Dan Knapp; michael@no.address;
> stephanie.barger@no.address; Justin Stockdale; Matthew  
> Cotton; Pete
> Pasterz; RicAnthony@no.address; stevew@no.address;  
> gary@no.address;
> crra_members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address;  
> zwia@no.address;
> ZERI_Practitioners@no.address; ZERI-US@no.address;
> sustainablebusiness@no.address; marc.gunther@no.address;
> cmoore@no.address; mgordon@no.address;  
> stephanie@no.address;
> Anna Cummins; Brenda Platt; Debra Hagstrom; Jonathan Parfrey; Raymond
> Halowski; Steve Mosko; Stuart Moody
> Subject: Re: [CRRA] Plastics in the ocean
>
> Will the fact that fish will disappear in 50 years---as reported in  
> the
> media---help our cause?
>
> Neil
>
> On Nov 6, 2006, at 5:11 PM, Nancy Strauss wrote:
>
>> Captain Charles Moore has been at this for quite some time....
>> http://www.algalita.org/research.html
>>
>> I think it comes down to a diversified way of dealing with litter,
>> illegal dumping and educating the public and businesses about what is
>> happening.
>>
>> Nancy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: crra_members@no.address
>> [mailto:crra_members@no.address]
>> On Behalf Of Tedd Ward
>> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:14 PM
>> To: 'Dan Knapp'; michael@no.address
>> Cc: stephanie.barger@no.address; 'Justin Stockdale'; 'Matthew
>> Cotton'; 'Pete Pasterz'; RicAnthony@no.address;
>> stevew@no.address; gary@no.address;
>> crra_members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address;
>> zwia@no.address; ZERI_Practitioners@no.address;
>> ZERI-US@no.address; sustainablebusiness@no.address;
>> marc.gunther@no.address; cmoore@no.address; mgordon@no.address;
>> stephanie@no.address; 'Anna Cummins'; 'Brenda Platt'; 'Debra
>> Hagstrom'; 'Jonathan Parfrey'; nseldman@no.address; 'Raymond Halowski';
>> 'Steve Mosko'; 'Stuart Moody'
>> Subject: RE: [CRRA] Plastics in the ocean
>>
>> This seemed topical to the discussion...
>>
>> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1106-01.htm
>>
>>
>> Tedd Ward, M.S.  - Program Manager
>> Del Norte Solid Waste Management Authority 1700 State Street Crescent
>> City, CA 95531
>>
>> (707) 465-1100
>>
>> "My life is garbage, but I'm in recovery."
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: crra_members@no.address
>> [mailto:crra_members@no.address]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Dan Knapp
>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 2:19 PM
>> To: michael@no.address
>> Cc: stephanie.barger@no.address; 'Justin Stockdale'; 'Matthew
>> Cotton'; 'Pete Pasterz'; RicAnthony@no.address;
>> stevew@no.address; gary@no.address;
>> crra_members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address;
>> zwia@no.address; ZERI_Practitioners@no.address;
>> ZERI-US@no.address; sustainablebusiness@no.address;
>> marc.gunther@no.address; cmoore@no.address; mgordon@no.address;
>> stephanie@no.address; 'Anna Cummins'; 'Brenda Platt'; 'Debra
>> Hagstrom'; 'Jonathan Parfrey'; nseldman@no.address; 'Raymond Halowski';
>> 'Steve Mosko'; 'Stuart Moody'
>> Subject: Re: [CRRA] RE: [GreenYes] Can you feed the stuff to the  
>> fish?
>>
>> To Michael, et. al.
>>
>> Thanks for the report on plastic bottled water.
>>
>> Many of my employees buy the stuff, so last year I read to them a
>> message to all municipal water supply users from East Bay Municipal
>> Utility District showing that our water was super clean and high
>> quality, coming straight from a protected watershed on the Tuoloumne
>> River in the Sierra Nevada.  Some reacted with skepticism.  I said I
>> always drink water from our taps, never from the bottled supply that
>> these folks insist is healthier.  As we discussed this further, I was
>> amazed to find that one of our most enlightened managers thought our
>> tapwater was somehow contaminated by the fact of its having passed
>> through metal pipes in our 70-year-old industrial building!  This
>> speaks to the "fears" that you mentioned.  More sinister to me is the
>> corporate drive to privatize the water supply, often by saying  
>> private
>> companies can deliver a superior product or do it cheaper or both.
>> One of Enron's schemes under Skilling was to create an international
>> water supply company, after which they started buying up various  
>> water
>> suppliers around the world using money leveraged from their eager
>> lenders.  It didn't work out well for them, fortunately, but I doubt
>> backers of this scheme are discouraged.  I view this as one more way
>> to enclose the commons for private profit.
>> All those ad slogans about superior water in plastic bottles play
>> directly into this monopolistic desire by publicly traded  
>> companies to
>> turn a profit on every single bodily or mental function we have.
>> Water supplies should be publicly owned and managed for public
>> benefit!
>>
>> Dan Knapp
>> Urban Ore, Inc.
>> Berkeley, CA
>> On Nov 3, 2006, at 11:42 AM, J. Michael Huls wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Folks,
>>>
>>> Most of what is purchased as bottled water is actually from the tap.
>>> It is purified water from municipal water supplies.  One of my
>>> favorite stories was in Houston, Texas, where you can buy bottled
>>> water "from the Ozark Mountains (Ozarka)."  However, when you read
>>> the fine print on the label, it states "from Harris County Municipal
>>> Water Supply" which is the County in which Houston is located.  So,
>>> most people who buy such water are actually paying double or triple
>>> what they already have in their home.  It has always been a scam for
>>> companies to prey on the fears of people that they are being  
>>> poisoned
>>> by tap water.  In some cases, this might have been true (water
>>> contaminated at Love Canal, PG&E, etc.).
>>>
>>> Where water is drawn from mountain sources, I agree that  
>>> Stephanie is
>>> right on target, as it draws water away from more important uses.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, plastic bottles are not necessarily "safe."  When I was
>>> taking samples for US EPA of hazardous waste sites, we could not use
>>> any plastic containers but only glass containers (this is a sampling
>>> requirement).  When water is left in plastic containers, it is a
>>> wonderful solvent, and strips out various contaminants such as MEK
>>> and other pasticizers in the plastic bottle wall; especially when
>>> such bottles are lift out in the sun and get irradiated and  
>>> heated to
>>> near boiling temperature.  I actualy did an experiment and conducted
>>> full laboratory analyses on pure distilled water samples in plastic
>>> containers.  The lab report on the distilled water came back with  
>>> the
>>> water contaminated with MEK and some other nasties as if it was
>>> hazardous.
>>>
>>>
>>> J. Michael Huls, REA
>>>
>>> Huls Environmental Management, LLC
>>> 1074 Parkview Drive, Suite 105
>>> Covina, CA 91724
>>> (626) 332-7514 ofc
>>> (626) 332-7504 fax
>>> www.hulsenv.com <http://www.hulsenv.com>
>>>
>>> The information contained in this email is confidential and may also
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>>> entity
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>>> recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,
>>> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly  
>>> prohibited.
>>> If you have received the email in error, please immediately  
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>>> by telephone and/or return the message to us at the email address
>>> above.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: crra_members@no.address
>>> [mailto:crra_members@no.address] On Behalf Of Stephanie Barger
>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 9:36 AM
>>> To: 'Justin Stockdale'; 'Matthew Cotton'; 'Pete Pasterz'
>>> Cc: RicAnthony@no.address; stevew@no.address;  
>>> gary@no.address;
>>> crra_members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address;
>>> zwia@no.address; ZERI_Practitioners@no.address;
>>> ZERI-US@no.address; sustainablebusiness@no.address;
>>> marc.gunther@no.address; cmoore@no.address; mgordon@no.address;
>>> stephanie@no.address; Anna Cummins; Brenda Platt; Debra
>>> Hagstrom; Jonathan Parfrey; nseldman@no.address; Raymond Halowski;
>>> Steve Mosko; Stuart Moody
>>> Subject: [CRRA] RE: [GreenYes] Can you feed the stuff to the fish?
>>>
>>> Hi Everyone
>>>
>>> I have not jumped in before as I have enjoyed how educated and aware
>>> people are becoming of the many challenges surrounding bioplastics.
>>> They are a great "Alternative" but not a solution.
>>>
>>> Zero Waste - I do not want to speak for all the Zero Wasters but our
>>> Zero Waste policy does not promote any product that causes more
>>> consumption and
>>> disposable items.  We are about "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle".   Our
>>> biggest
>>> challenge is to get away from the need for instant convenience  
>>> and we
>>> continually promote reusable everything and more important regarding
>>> bottled water the following are high priorities
>>>
>>> Bottled Water
>>>
>>> 1)  We are stripping our natural springs where life begins
>>> 2)  We should be pushing for clean and safe water directly from the
>>> tap
>>> 3)  Water bottles allow a HUGE amount waste of water.  We stopped
>>> using bottled water at any of our beach cleanups because we would
>>> find over 50% of the water was left in bottles (let alone the
>>> pollution of the
>>> bottles)
>>> 4) The amount of energy required for shipping any type of bottled
>>> water from the mountains to our local grocery stores or across the
>>> pacific from FIJI
>>> 5) It is a huge financial strain on low-income families and most of
>>> them to do even realize the amount they are spending.  This is a
>>> great environmental "Math" problem that our 3rd and 4th graders  
>>> solve
>>> and they see the value of instead of bottled water they could have a
>>> new bike, a vacation, etc.
>>>
>>> Zero Waste is about looking at ALL the inputs and outputs and I do
>>> not see how bottled water fits into any of our policies.  I would
>>> like to see a campaign that would ask people, etc to reduce the
>>> amount of bottled water we consume whether it be in bioplastics vs.
>>> petroplastics.
>>>
>>> Please attend our conference on November 15th to learn more about
>>> zero waste http://www.earthresource.org/zerowaste.html
>>>
>>> Stephanie Barger, Executive Director
>>> stephanie.barger@no.address
>>> Earth Resource Foundation
>>> 230 E. 17th St #208
>>> Costa Mesa, CA  92627
>>> www.earthresource.org <http://www.earthresource.org/>
>>> 949-645-5163
>>>
>>> Help support Earth Resource Foundation's youth programs and  
>>> campaigns
>>> for:
>>> smoke free beaches, plastic reduction and promotion of electric cars
>>> and renewable energies
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>> From: Justin Stockdale [mailto:jstockdale@no.address]
>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 9:00 AM
>>> To: 'Matthew Cotton'; 'Pete Pasterz'
>>> Cc: RicAnthony@no.address; stevew@no.address;  
>>> gary@no.address;
>>> crra_members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address;
>>> zwia@no.address; ZERI_Practitioners@no.address;
>>> ZERI-US@no.address; sustainablebusiness@no.address;
>>> marc.gunther@no.address; cmoore@no.address; mgordon@no.address;
>>> stephanie@no.address
>>> Subject: RE: [GreenYes] Can you feed the stuff to the fish?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I feel like I am missing something in the ongoing debate about the
>>> virtues of PLA and other bio-plastics.is no one concerned that these
>>> plastics stand to sanctify the production of gmo's as  
>>> environmentally
>>> preferable simply because they fit nicely into the zero waste
>>> framework? To read recently that the Boulder farmers market is not
>>> only proud, but touting their zero waste status though the use of  
>>> gmo
>>> products seems to me to be as contrary to the virtues of a farmers
>>> market as possible.
>>>
>>> I am struck that the zero waste movement is getting lost striving  
>>> for
>>> the magic zero.that they have divorced their movement from all other
>>> aspects of environmental responsibility? Just because it is
>>> compostable does not make a starlink knife a good thing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And please do not forget that recycling, composting and the lot is
>>> still waste, if you have it to be recycled you have still generated
>>> waste....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Justin Stockdale
>>>
>>> Buckman Road Recycling & Transfer Station
>>>
>>> 149 Wildlife Way
>>>
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87506
>>>
>>> 505-424-1850
>>>
>>> jstockdale@no.address
>>>
>>> Save your local landfill...Recycle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address]
>>> On Behalf
>>> Of Matthew Cotton
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:06 PM
>>> To: Pete Pasterz
>>> Cc: RicAnthony@no.address; stevew@no.address;  
>>> gary@no.address;
>>> crra_members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address;
>>> zwia@no.address; ZERI_Practitioners@no.address;
>>> ZERI-US@no.address; sustainablebusiness@no.address;
>>> marc.gunther@no.address; cmoore@no.address; mgordon@no.address;
>>> stephanie@no.address
>>> Subject: [GreenYes] Can you feed the stuff to the fish?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rick (et al) -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that the introduction of biodegradable "stuff" brings up
>>> issues, both new and existing. I guess the question is: Does the
>>> introduction of PLA (or other compostable stuff) necessarily lead to
>>> more litter or more plastic in the environment? We have a massive
>>> litter problem now, but I don't see how the introduction of
>>> compostable stuff increases this problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, we have a lot of education to do. I just had a quick lunch  
>>> of an
>>> Annie Chun "instant" noodle bowl. It came in a "biodegradable"
>>> container, which is cool. But there is no information on the package
>>> or on their website about what to do with this. Should I put it  
>>> in my
>>> home composting bin?
>>> (probably).
>>> Should I try to get it to a composting facility that takes food
>>> scraps and biod egradable stuff? How is a consumer supposed to know
>>> what to do with it?
>>> Is this just furthering the myth that eventually all things will
>>> decompose in the landfill?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As you know, I was on the panel at NRC that discussed some of these
>>> issues.
>>> I wish I had had a chance to bring up the concept of MOOP (Matter  
>>> Out
>>> of Place). Probably a good concept to think about. Along the road to
>>> zero waste we've got to focus on the MOOP. All of the plastic in the
>>> environment is MOOP. The way to fix this is to provide the education
>>> and the infrastructure to get the Matter into the right place (as  
>>> for
>>> example, Eco-Cycle is doing with their Center for Hard to Recycle
>>> Materials, why aren't there more of these?).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Replacing some or all of the food service containers and utensils
>>> with a biodegradable alternative may ensure that at least some of it
>>> gets recovered via composting.  I ag ree wholeheartedly with
>>> Stephen's point that it would seem that most non-bottle plastics  
>>> (and
>>> I think nationally we're recycling about 25% of those?), in most
>>> places, don't get recycled, so either end up in a landfill, in an
>>> incinerator, or in the environment. So to the extent that we can
>>> replace these non-recyclable items with compostable ones, we can  
>>> hope
>>> to recover at least some of them and hopefully recover some of the
>>> wasted food that is also landfilled along with them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Matthew Cotton
>>>
>>> Integrated Waste Management Consulting, LLC
>>>
>>> 19375 Lake City Road
>>>
>>> Nevada City, CA  95959
>>>
>>> 530-265-4560
>>>
>>> mattcotton@no.address
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:29 PM, Pete Pasterz wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Especially after the NRC presentation during which the NatureWorks
>>> rep.
>>> stated that PLA will NOT decompose as litter on the roadside or in
>>> water; only in a compost pile of 150 degrees!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pete Pasterz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   _____
>>>
>>> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address]
>>> On Behalf
>>> Of RicAnthony@no.address
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:12 PM
>>> To: stevew@no.address; gary@no.address; crra
>>> _members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address;
>>> zwia@no.address; ZERI_Practitioners@no.address;
>>> ZERI-US@no.address; sustainablebusiness@no.address
>>> Cc: marc.gunther@no.address; cmoore@no.address;
>>> mgordon@no.address; stephanie@no.address
>>> Subject: [heur] [GreenYes] Can you feed the stuff to the fish?
>>> Importance: Low
>>>
>>> In a message dated 11/2/2006 12:06:44 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>>> stevew@no.address writes:think bio-plastic bottles are a
>>> great idea except the "recycling problem" is definitely a
>>> concern.....shoul d definitely support other bio-plastic products
>>> such as cups, and foodservice containers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I worry about all the food service containers and utensils that are
>>> dumped into the environment  becoming fish and bird food before
>>> totally decomposed.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>