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RE: [greenyes] Re: Eco-friendly cafeteria supplies and other topics of interest

I would like to suggest some middle ground here. It seems like this is
a bit of a glass half empty, glass half full" discussion. It sounds to
me that, on one hand, we have an optimist suggesting what may be
possible, even if in some cases only for planning purposes, and on the
other hand we have a pragmatist looking at what can be done today.

I think both viewpoints are valid. There are some things that can be
done today, and there are things to keep in mind in order to plan for
future progress.

Terry S. Brennan
Integrated Waste Management Specialist
California Integrated Waste Management Board
phone (916) 341-6578
fax (916) 319-7474
e-mail tbrennan@no.address

Zero Waste - You make it happen!


From: Art Krenzel [mailto:phoenix98604@no.address]
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:14 AM
To: Timothy Logan; Dana.Coyle@no.address; GRRNlistserve
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Re: Eco-friendly cafeteria supplies and other
topics of interest


I would think that you did more than oversimplify the process.

I consider the presentation of a solution as "real" when it does not
have available parts, proper operator training, poor economics,
unresolved health issues and a demonstrated working process to be, at
best, a form of mental masturbation.

Suggesting that Dana switch to reusable dishes today when the rest of
the system is years away is not responsible consulting.

Art Krenzel, P.E.
10505 NE 285TH Street
Battle Ground, WA 98604
360-666-1883 voice

----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Logan <mailto:timothyjwlogan@no.address>
To: Art Krenzel <mailto:phoenix98604@no.address> ;
Dana.Coyle@no.address ; GRRNlistserve <mailto:greenyes@no.address>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:39 AM
Subject: [greenyes] Re: Eco-friendly cafeteria supplies and
other topics of interest


I recognize the oversimplification I've suggested in the whole
process, the concept I wanted to highlight was that of Zero Waste and
the opportunities to set such a goal locally, plan for it and then
implement the process. Zero Waste represents the opportunity to address
these issues head on. So yes, Dana, simple answer - switch back to
reuseable dishes and flatware and stop trying to throw things away -
because here on Earth there is no "away" to throw things - our
consumption decisions and the throw away society we've created (or
allowed producers to create) is not acceptable.

Find out more about what you can do for New Jersey by coming
across the Hudson and joining us at GRRN's 2nd Zero Waste Action
Conference in NYC May 23-25, without GRRN we would have the Greenyes
listserve and we wouldn't have a chance to make progress against the
throwaway society that threatens us now and is becoming all the more
detrimental to future generations everyday. Just check out
for more information on the conference and to register online.

Timothy J.W. Logan
Lead Organizer, NYC Zero Waste Campaign

Art Krenzel <phoenix98604@no.address> wrote:


While you were "moving and grooving" through your
suggested alternatives, you mentioned alot of technology which cannot be
purchased at your local Lowe's store, run by operators who cannot get
trained at the local community college and odor control that, unless
TOTALLY successful, will water your eyes at 100 yards. While all the
technologies have been proven, the process equipment used in a project
of this size only exists in VAPORWARE or the third world.

Although your suggestions make good intuitive sense, the
devil is in the details of purchasing the pieces, keeping it running,
finding people to operate it day in and day out as well as dealing with
the health department over issues such as disease control, odors,
material handling, operator exposure problems, etc.

You breezed right through the entire composting process
for the solids remaining after biogas production. Starting from
anaerobic feedstocks in an odor sensitive area have cost major cities
like Spokane, WA to completely drop their yardwaste recycling program.
You can gloss over these items on paper but when the waste hits the road
and leaves a smelly grease spot, the people demand that you have a good
solution - RIGHT NOW.

Implementing your suggestion will require more money,
time and training than most people can appreciate. I can show you
hundreds of tons of scrap steel from dairy biogas facilities which were
decommissioned because of the lack of good operators, excessive
maintenance and poor economics. The long term successful operation of
facilities such as these is less than you would expect for such a simple

Art Krenzel, P.E.
10505 NE 285TH Street
Battle Ground, WA 98604
360-666-1883 voice

REGISTER NOW for The Second National Zero Waste Action

New York City - May 23-25, 2005

"Building Zero Waste Communities: Tools to Take

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