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RE: [greenyes] Science in America in the 21st Century
Title: Message
 THANK YOU David !!!  What you say may indeed be shaping up as THE critical issue facing us on this list serve and beyond. To make it worse, much of the dominant media bombards us with "their" (your term "anti. . e-s-h-movement" below) messages; so if we censor ourselves we do "them" a favor.  If anyone has read "Don't Think of an Elephant" to understand this, now's the time.  See  

Bill Tarman-Ramcheck

Public Works Programs Analyst

City of Wauwatosa Public Works

7725 W. North Ave.

Wauwatosa, WI  53213

         414-471-8422 x217

         414-471-8469 (fax)

         414-313-1535 (cell)

         email bramcheck@no.address



"Before you eat breakfast this morning, you’ve depended on more than half the world.

This is the way our universe is structured. . .We aren’t going to have peace on earth

 until we recognize this basic fact of the interrelated structure of all reality."


----Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Biddle [mailto:Dbiddle@no.address]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:30 PM
To: Roger Guttentag; C E F G :-); GRRN - GreenYes; Alan Muller
Cc: powerbysun@no.address; anderson@no.address
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Science in America in the 21st Century

Dear All-

I’m sure this won’t help matters, but I’ve been paying careful attention to media pieces on anti-environmentalists in the evangelical right (probably not the best term, but it’s still forming, so...). I’ve also been reading Michael Crichton’s State of Fear which is touted as a sort of enviro-thriller, but it’s really an anti-enviro thriller (among other things, Prius drivers work for the “bad guy” environmental nonprofits).

The point is that we are sailing into new territory. There is a growing anti-environmental/anti-science/anti-humanist movement beginning to swirl the waters of this country. It is very real and, I believe, very serious about its mission. Crichton’s State of Fear is a must read if you want to see what they’re all about. He’s actually pretty tame compared to others, but the crux of the matter is that the issue of Global Warming is being dismissed by many of them—along with most other basic policies of environmental stewardship and sustainable development.

This may all well be the direct result of the fact that GW is now virtually a fully accepted theory amongst reputable scientists, and that these nay sayers are simply gasping for their final breaths. Or, with the November victory of numerous conservatives throughout this country, there could be a sense that now is the time to strike. I don’t really know what the answer is, but I do know that policy making, planning, and implementation of programs—from curbside recycling and composting innovations to mass transportation, mercury emissions, and nuclear power—are being influenced on a number of levels by this “group.”

So, if we don’t talk about this here on GreenYes and other list serves, where are we going to talk about it? The biggest problem with the whole field of “the environment” is that we think we have truth on our side. We concern ourselves with nuts and bolts, and don’t pay enough attention to the bigger picture. Right now, that’s a very short-sighted approach to problem solving. I just read last night that there are 231 U.S. legislators  who have signed on to the evangelical belief in the End Time (or End of Days). Some of them may just be doing so out of expediency, but still, that is downright astounding.

In almost every case, when someone on this list serve stridently seeks to censor someone else, I feel uncomfortable. It’s a big country and we’re all juggling hundreds of balls in our little offices. If someone writes something that isn’t germane to your juggling act, you ignore it. In this case, though, it is paramount that we all recognize there is a growing antipathy towards what we do—and what we believe in. We need to talk about this and compare notes. Ignoring this problem does not mean you don’t have to juggle it. It’s there with the other balls whether you like it or not.

I’ll stop now. If you got to this part of my diatribe, go back to work. Peter, Bruce, Amy, Ted, Roger, Jerry, Michele, Pat, Doug, Helen, Heidi, Ann, etc, keep them cards and letters coming!

And, nice juggling, everybody...(by the way, I just got back from a waste audit at a Philadelphia Whole Foods where I estimate they’re saving about $50,000/year with their recycling and waste reduction program).


on 2/3/05 12:16 PM, Roger Guttentag at rgutten@no.address wrote:


I am very much in agreement with Alan's remarks.  Peter and Bruce, even at
their worst, have always provided comments to greenYes that I have found
interesting and insightful.  I have always appreciated them even when they
are wrong.  On the other hand, I cannot think of a better candidate to be
consigned to a blog that no one reads than Mr. William.  I have always found
his comments to be consistently unhelpful, snide and often arrogant.
However, I have refrained from excoriating his previous posts on the basis
that I understand the "delete" command well and I am not afraid to use it.
Perhaps Mr. William should hire a bright computer science student to tutor
him on this exotic aspect of Internet list participation.

Roger Guttentag

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Muller <amuller@no.address>
To: C E F G :-) <hither@no.address>; GRRN - GreenYes <greenyes@no.address>
Cc: <powerbysun@no.address>; <anderson@no.address>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Science in America in the 21st Century

> At 05:28 AM 2/3/2005 -0800, C E F G :-) wrote:
> >Everyone...
> >
> >The religious/scientific opinionated rantings/confessions DO NOT have any
> >business on GreenYes.
> Personally, I appreciate Peter's posts.  But even if you don't, there's no
> justification for calling them "garbage."  ( "garbage" supposed
> be a pejorative term on this list?)
> Alan
> Alan Muller, Executive Director
> Green Delaware
> Box 69
> Port Penn, DE 19731 USA
> (302)834-3466
> fax (302)836-3005
> greendel@no.address

 David Biddle, Executive Director

         P.O. Box 4037
    Philadelphia, PA 19118
          215-432-8225 (mobile)


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