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Re: [greenyes] Science in America in the 21st Century
Title: Re: [greenyes] Science in America in the 21st Century
Bill and Everyone-

Funny you should mention “Don’t Think of an Elephant.” A friend who is tired of listening to me talk about how its not about what’s “Right” but one set of values vs. another, told me I should check Lakoff’s book out. Ordered from Powell’s yesterday. Very prescient!


By the way, the best music to think about recycling issues to is Lanterna. Check ‘em out...
<>  (it’s the best music to think about anything to).

on 2/3/05 2:21 PM, William Ramcheck at bramcheck@no.address wrote:

THANK YOU David !!!  What you say may indeed be shaping up as THE critical issue facing us on this list serve and beyond. To make it worse, much of the dominant media bombards us with "their" (your term "anti. . e-s-h-movement" below) messages; so if we censor ourselves we do "them" a favor.  If anyone has read "Don't Think of an Elephant" to understand this, now's the time.  See

Bill Tarman-Ramcheck
Public Works Programs Analyst
City of Wauwatosa Public Works
7725 W. North Ave.
Wauwatosa, WI  53213
         414-471-8422 x217
         414-471-8469 (fax)
         414-313-1535 (cell)
         email bramcheck@no.address
         website <>  
"Before you eat breakfast this morning, you’ve depended on more than half the world.

This is the way our universe is structured. . .We aren’t going to have peace on earth

until we recognize this basic fact of the interrelated structure of all reality."

----Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


-----Original Message-----
From: David Biddle  [mailto:Dbiddle@no.address]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:30  PM
To: Roger Guttentag; C E F G :-); GRRN - GreenYes; Alan  Muller
Cc: powerbysun@no.address;  anderson@no.address
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Science in  America in the 21st Century

Dear All-

I’m sure this won’t help matters, but  I’ve been paying careful attention to media pieces on anti-environmentalists  in the evangelical right (probably not the best term, but it’s still forming,  so...). I’ve also been reading Michael Crichton’s State of Fear which  is touted as a sort of enviro-thriller, but it’s really an anti-enviro  thriller (among other things, Prius drivers work for the “bad guy”  environmental nonprofits).

The point is that we are sailing into new  territory. There is a growing anti-environmental/anti-science/anti-humanist  movement beginning to swirl the waters of this country. It is very real and, I  believe, very serious about its mission. Crichton’s State of Fear is a  must read if you want to see what they’re all about. He’s actually pretty tame  compared to others, but the crux of the matter is that the issue of Global  Warming is being dismissed by many of them—along with most other basic  policies of environmental stewardship and sustainable development.  

This may all well be the direct result of the fact that GW is now  virtually a fully accepted theory amongst reputable scientists, and that these  nay sayers are simply gasping for their final breaths. Or, with the November  victory of numerous conservatives throughout this country, there could be a  sense that now is the time to strike. I don’t really know what the answer is,  but I do know that policy making, planning, and implementation of  programs—from curbside recycling and composting innovations to mass  transportation, mercury emissions, and nuclear power—are being influenced on a  number of levels by this “group.”

So, if we don’t talk about this here  on GreenYes and other list serves, where are we going to talk about it? The  biggest problem with the whole field of “the environment” is that we think we  have truth on our side. We concern ourselves with nuts and bolts, and don’t  pay enough attention to the bigger picture. Right now, that’s a very  short-sighted approach to problem solving. I just read last night that there  are 231 U.S. legislators  who have signed on to the evangelical belief in  the End Time (or End of Days). Some of them may just be doing so out of  expediency, but still, that is downright astounding.

In almost every  case, when someone on this list serve stridently seeks to censor someone else,  I feel uncomfortable. It’s a big country and we’re all juggling hundreds of  balls in our little offices. If someone writes something that isn’t germane to  your juggling act, you ignore it. In this case, though, it is paramount that  we all recognize there is a growing antipathy towards what we do—and what we  believe in. We need to talk about this and compare notes. Ignoring this  problem does not mean you don’t have to juggle it. It’s there with the other  balls whether you like it or not.

I’ll stop now. If you got to this  part of my diatribe, go back to work. Peter, Bruce, Amy, Ted, Roger, Jerry,  Michele, Pat, Doug, Helen, Heidi, Ann, etc, keep them cards and letters  coming!

And, nice juggling, everybody...(by the way, I just got back  from a waste audit at a Philadelphia Whole Foods where I estimate they’re  saving about $50,000/year with their recycling and waste reduction  program).


on 2/3/05 12:16 PM, Roger Guttentag at  rgutten@no.address wrote:


I am very much in agreement  with Alan's remarks.  Peter and Bruce, even at
their worst, have  always provided comments to greenYes that I have found
interesting and  insightful.  I have always appreciated them even when they
are  wrong.  On the other hand, I cannot think of a better candidate to  be
consigned to a blog that no one reads than Mr. William.  I have  always found
his comments to be consistently unhelpful, snide and often  arrogant.
However, I have refrained from excoriating his previous posts  on the basis
that I understand the "delete" command well and I am not  afraid to use it.
Perhaps Mr. William should hire a bright computer  science student to tutor
him on this exotic aspect of Internet list  participation.

Roger Guttentag

----- Original  Message -----
From: Alan Muller <amuller@no.address>
To: C E F G  :-) <hither@no.address>; GRRN - GreenYes <greenyes@no.address>
Cc:  <powerbysun@no.address>; <anderson@no.address>
Sent:  Thursday, February 03, 2005 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Science in  America in the 21st Century

> At 05:28 AM 2/3/2005 -0800, C E  F G :-) wrote:
> >Everyone...
> >
> >The  religious/scientific opinionated rantings/confessions DO NOT have  any
> >business on GreenYes.
> Personally, I  appreciate Peter's posts.  But even if you don't, there's no
>  justification for calling them "garbage."  ( "garbage"  supposed
> be a pejorative term on this list?)
>  Alan
> Alan Muller, Executive Director
> Green  Delaware
> Box 69
> Port Penn, DE 19731 USA
>  (302)834-3466
> fax (302)836-3005
> greendel@no.address

 David Biddle,  Executive Director

        P.O.  Box 4037
    Philadelphia, PA  19118
          215-432-8225  (mobile)


Read In Business magazine to learn about sustainable
businesses in  communities across North America!
Go to:

 David Biddle, Executive Director

         P.O. Box 4037
    Philadelphia, PA 19118
          215-432-8225 (mobile)


Read In Business magazine to learn about sustainable
businesses in communities across North America!
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