[GreenYes] Re: Biosolids. Incineration & Confidentiality Statements?

["Doug Koplow" <koplow@no.address>]

Your posting reminded me of a presentation I went to by the CEO of Molten Metals Technology a few years back.  No matter how many people asked him about the full cost of the system, he kept dancing the question and responding only about operating costs.  Never did get the capital cost data, though eventually the market gave its answer and MMT went into bankruptcy.

I also have some feeling that converting highly refined materials back into their base materials, rather than recapturing the invested beneficiation, would represent a failure of recycling, not a success.  If the energy flow calculations indicate otherwise, I'd of course be open to correction.

Anybody know how much non-private support (state guarantees on debt, etc.) the plant is getting?

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Doug Koplow
Earth Track, Inc.
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www.earthtrack.net
Tel:  617/661-4700
Fax: 617/354-0463

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>>> David Biddle <Dbiddle@no.address> 08/21/06 18:07 PM >>>
I still don¹t see an independent analysis, especially with today¹s energy
prices. I want to see the capital and operating dollars, Btus in and out,
system efficiency analysis, emissions studies, a heat content analysis, the
subsidies and any guaranteed pricing, and then the full analysis of
recycling, including sensitivity analysis based on participation rates of,
say, 40%, 60%, 80% and 90% with a waste composition analysis that is
well-defined and fully verifiable, and collection, processing and marketing
costs and benefits.

If this kind of work isn¹t available, then I don¹t see the point of debating
it. Confidentiality statements aside...

As  always, we shall await the reality of technology implementation. In my
25 years in the field, I have yet to see a $425 million project work the way
its investors think it will*for anything. I just hope the folks in St. Lucie
County have paid someone a solid  chunk of change for serious, smart, and
intelligible due diligence.

Sorry.

-- 
David Biddle, Executive Director
Greater Philadelphia Commercial Recycling Council
P.O. Box 4037
Philadelphia, PA 19118

215-247-3090 (desk)
215-432-8225 (cell)

<http://www.gpcrc.com>

Read In Business magazine to learn about sustainable
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on 8/21/06 4:00 PM, David Jaber at djaber@no.address wrote:

> In addition to Dave Biddle's excellent comments, from a systems perspective,
> since we're all embedded and supported by natural systems, let's look at how
> they operate.   
> 
> Consider where incinerative processes work, where they don't work, how often
> they happen, and what type of fuels they use.  It might prove a good guide to
> see if, where, and how to incorporate incineration into human processes, and
> keep a healthy integration with our communities and world.
>    
> Any ecological biologists or biomicrists, fire away.
> 
> 
> On Monday, Aug 21, 2006, at 11:43 US/Pacific, Monica Wilson wrote:
> 
>> Apologies that the GreenYes list has been hijacked by this conversation, but
>> I'll just share one last thought which is that plasma is clearly incineration
>> when the resulting gases are incinerated. This is why the European Union
>> considers plasma, gasification and pyrolysis to be incinerators -- combustion
>> of waste, even if it's treated first, is incineration:
>> The European Union Parliament's Directive on Incineration of Waste:
>> http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/consleg/pdf/2000/en_2000L0076_do_001.pdf
>> "'[I]ncineration plant' means any stationary or mobile technical unit
>> andequipment dedicated to the thermal treatment of wastes with or
>> withoutrecovery of the combustion heat generated. This includes the
>> incineration byoxidation of waste as well as other thermal treatment
>> processes such aspyrolysis, gasification or plasma processes in so far as the
>> substancesresulting from the treatment are subsequently incinerated."
>>   
>> Not to mention the question of spending over $400 million to destroy valuable
>> resources that could be recycled and composted. I suggest we put our money
>> and efforts into stopping the twin problems of resource depletion and waste
>> creation, rather than subsidizing wasting by finding new ways to juggle mixed
>> discards. 
>> 
>> I'm happy to continue this discussion with anyone off list to not overwhelm
>> the entire email list.
>> 
>> Regards, 
>> Monica Wilson 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> <image.tiff> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address] On Behalf
>> Of LWheeler45@no.address
>> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 12:40 AM
>> To: amuller@no.address; arboone3@no.address; GreenYes@no.address
>> Subject: [GreenYes] Re: Biosolids. Sealed means independent testing !
>> 
>>  
>> Sealed means independent testing with the seal of the testing lab embossed on
>> the pages like a notary. 
>>   
>> I will send you a copy off net of sampled sealed test info and the details
>> onmachine I observed which was greatly improved since 2004.
>>   
>> The energy balance varies depending on what is put in as is demonstrated in
>> the Westinghouse system. Plama reduic of Coal yield is much better than sewer
>> sludge. 
>>   
>> Plasma loves all plastics especially auto fluff.
>>   
>> Fla has lots of waste streams that are more or less pure high hydrocarbon
>> containing feedstock types this allows even greater efficiency and thruput. 
>>   
>> By the way anyone that says Plasma is incineration is clueless on the
>> process. NO FLAME inert gas no oxygen involved. And really really clean. EPA
>> emissions sheet on Medical Waste will be sent to you off net.
>>   
>> AS far as cost is concerned the deal that the old plasma company made to my
>> county was FREE system contracted waste stream and agreed on price of
>> electrical power which was better than our existing Covanta contract. Lake Co
>> has one of three legacy waste to enegy plants in Fla.  Uses Natural Gas to
>> keep the temps consistent and lots of water to control emissions. We also
>> have a class Blandfill and ash to contend with. And Lake CO also recycles
>> glass, plastic, cardboard and metals cans and white goods.
>>   
>>   
>> 
>> 
>>  
>  
> > 









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