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RE: greenyes-d Digest V01 #101
	What David suggests is completely unsupported factually in his e-mail (though many of us believe it), he attacks under the guise of a single persons e-mail while oh-so gallantly stating he isn't attacking her and then uses another nice rhetorical slight of hand by bashing me and Mr. Nickerson by writing that we, "seem to be defending the biggest forest-destroying propaganda machine in the history of the Earth." when I or Mr. Nickerson did nothing of the kind. We simply thought his diatribe - however correct in some ways - was misplaced in using Ms. McCoy as a fulcrum.

	I am not arguing with anything he wrote simply his tone.

	Now, Mr. Orr, about your citizenship?

> ----------
> From: 	Anne Morse[SMTP:AMorse@NT1.Co.Winona.MN.US]
> Sent: 	Tuesday, April 03, 2001 3:18 PM
> To: 	'Cloutier, Chris'; multiple recipients of
> Subject: 	RE: greenyes-d Digest V01 #101
> 
> Sorry to disagree with you Chris, but what David Orr said about AF & P, and
> secondarily about Chris wasn't even close to character assasination.
> Hyperbole helps nothing at all here.  Quite to the contrary, I believe
> David's point is exactly what this list-serve is all about.
> 
> What I think David was reacting to is the very real and insidious strategy
> corporations use to good advantage of putting a sweet face/front on their
> presentation.  In this case, it's putting a recycling advocate front and
> center.  If we are to get anywhere, however, we've got to look deeply at
> what those corporations do, and not what they say.  And I know you know
> this.  
> 
> Anne Morse
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Cloutier, Chris [SMTP:chris.cloutier@moea.state.mn.us]
> > Sent:	Tuesday, April 03, 2001 2:20 PM
> > To:	multiple recipients of
> > Subject:	RE: greenyes-d Digest V01 #101
> > 
> > Frank does a much nicer job than me of saying that sort of near
> > character-assination really has no place on this list-serve.
> > 
> > Using David's logic, he should soon be renouncing his US citizenship b/c
> > the US gov't is at least as environmentally damaging as the members of the
> > AF&PA. Doesn't the same ethical conundrum (read: strawman) apply?
> > 
> > > ----------
> > > From: 	Frank Nickerson[SMTP:fn1999@erols.com]
> > > Reply To: 	fn1999@erols.com
> > > Sent: 	Tuesday, April 03, 2001 2:06 PM
> > > To: 	multiple recipients of
> > > Subject: 	Re: greenyes-d Digest V01 #101
> > > 
> > > I do know Christine McCoy - I have known her for about 2 years and have
> > read her posts on my local community listserv for at least that long.
> > > 
> > > Christine is my neighbor and she makes a huge personal commitment and
> > sacrifice for the environment.  This is the third year in a row that she
> > has personally spearheaded through her force of personality an Earthday
> > project to clean-up my neighborhood.  Many who know her would say she does
> > more for the neighborhood and the environment than anyone else they know,
> > hands down. She does not own a car, but walks, rides her bike, or uses
> > public transportation.
> > > 
> > > I can not recall where Christine worked prior to AF&PA, but she took
> > this job since I met her.  I think she finds it a challenge and an
> > opportunity to lead and be a change agent in an organization that does not
> > always have the best reputation in environmental social circles.  In her
> > position at AF&AP she has the opportunity to change minds where many
> > decisions about the environment are made.  I can't say she would always be
> > successful in her efforts (who is?), but I can not fathom Christine being
> > rolled by anyone.  She is polite, but speaks her mind.  She takes action.
> > I am sure her employers know she is an environmentalist.
> > > 
> > > Frank Nickerson
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 14:43:45 EDT 
> > > From: DavidOrr@aol.com 
> > > To: greenyes@earthsystems.org 
> > > Subject: [GreenYes] AF&PA > 
> > > Message-ID: <37.12f71f61.27fa2261@aol.com> 
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" 
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
> > > 
> > > On 4/2/01 9:51 AM, Christine_McCoy@afandpa.org 
> > > Christine_McCoy@afandpa.org wrote: 
> > > 
> > > >In the meantime, you may want to check out 
> > > >our website for general information on paper and wood recycling. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > While I don't know Ms. McCoy, nor do I have any reason to doubt her 
> > > sincerity on a personal level, I would strongly caution all subscribers 
> > > to this list that the American Forest & Paper Association is the timber 
> > > industry's mouthpiece and a major obstructive force against forest 
> > > protection efforts in this country and abroad. To the extent they 
> > > promote paper and wood recycling, it is as a defensive measure, i.e., to
> > 
> > > be able to defend against charges that they prefer to cut down trees to 
> > > promote recycling. 
> > > 
> > > If the AF&PA and its member companies cared about recycling, we would 
> > > have a lot more post-consumer waste recycling in this country. For 
> > > example, it was back in the early days of the Clinton Administration
> > when 
> > > the white house proposed a minimum PCW content rule for the Government 
> > > Printing Office. Who shot that down? The AF&PA and some of its biggest 
> > > member companies. 
> > > 
> > > So take what they tell you with a block of salt. I won't be checking 
> > > their website for any information, other than to see what sort of 
> > > self-serving propaganda the timber industry puts out on a given day or
> > on 
> > > a given topic. 
> > > 
> > > Good luck to Ms. McCoy in her job. It is a serious ethical challenge for
> > 
> > > an environmentalist to work for the world's biggest advocate for forest 
> > > destruction. 
> > > 
> > > David Orr 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > __________________________________________________________________________
> > _
> > > Visit http://www.visto.com/info, your free web-based communications
> > center.
> > > Visto.com. Life on the Dot.
> > > 
> > > 
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