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[GreenYes] RE: [CRRA] Re: [GreenYes] message to Gil Friend... and all ... RE: webinar - Coming To Grips With Carbon, 10/25

Title: Message
This issue needs to come back to the legislature in January. My recollection is that LA San killed the last attempt to correct this fraud, as Dr. K has so aptly described it.
-----Original Message-----
From: crra_members@no.address [mailto:crra_members@no.address] On Behalf Of Dan Knapp
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:36 PM
To: michael@no.address
Cc: 'Eric Lombardi'; zwia@no.address; OrganicsOutOfLandfills@no.address; crra_members@no.address; GreenYes@no.address; ZERI-US@no.address; sustainablebusiness@no.address; p2tech@no.address; p2@no.address; 'Gil Friend'; 'Kate Mangione'; 'Marti Matsch'; 'Linda Christopher'; 'Peter Anderson'
Subject: Re: [CRRA] Re: [GreenYes] message to Gil Friend... and all ... RE: webinar - Coming To Grips With Carbon, 10/25


Thanks for the constructive addition to the argument.  Thanks also to Steve Lautze.

I agree with you completely except for the "artificial" appelation you give to the low price of ADC compared to compost.  

To see why, it helps to know how ADC is manufactured and used.  Any untipped construction materials debris box will have some material in it that is ADC size, and some will have more than others.  But the amount of ADC increases greatly and quite deliberately in after-tip handling steps at many C & D processing facilities.  The problem has many causes, but two stand out in this context:  lack of mandated labor-intensive salvaging at the first tip, and subsequent rough handling in further steps all designed to fit extremely bulky materials onto fast moving picking line belts about six feet wide.  The ADC residue from all this upstream smashing and bashing and crushing collects under a grizzly that is step one of the "recycling" process.  Being highly automated and equipment-intensive, making ADC is relatively cheap process, and there is no further care required.  Just haul it and spread it.  

Clean composting requires many more steps:  close attention to front-end contaminant removal, grinding or chipping,  windrowing, turning, watering, monitoring, screening, blending, and marketing.

Composting produces sales tax revenue.  ADC's only product is the landfill, and copius methane/CO2.  No sales taxes for that, yet.  

There is no other market for this material.  Its only possible destiny is the landfill.  And its mostly organic.

Dan Knapp
On Oct 24, 2007, at 2:01 PM, J. Michael Huls wrote:

Your missive raises many valid points, but also ADC has unfairly competed with appropriate recycling by being offered at artifically cheap prices.  Often, many landfills will accept ADC at about half the regular dump rate.  This has distorted the marketplace for organics, and in fact severely damaged composting markets which cannot necessarily compete at such low processing costs.

J. Michael Huls, REA

Huls Environmental Management, LLC
P.O. Box 4519
Covina, CA 91723-4519
(626) 332-7514 ext 26 ofc
(213) 840-9279 (cell)                                                     (626) 332-7504 fax

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From: [] On Behalf Of Dan Knapp
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:25 PM
To: Eric Lombardi
Cc: zwia@no.addresscom; OrganicsOutOfLandfills@no.addresscom;;;;;; p2@no.address; 'Gil Friend'; 'Kate Mangione'; 'Marti Matsch'; 'Linda Christopher'; 'Peter Anderson'
Subject: [CRRA] Re: [GreenYes] message to Gil Friend... and all ... RE: webinar - Coming To Grips With Carbon, 10/25


As a reuse recycler in business for 27 years, I agree with Eric Lombardi and would like to add a poignant postscript from California.

Since 1994 California has allowed what is in fact a landfilling practice to get recycling credit as "diversion from landfilling."  I refer to the commodity known as Alternative Daily Cover, now widely used as a substitute for soil in building the landfill baklava.  In chemical composition, ADC is largely "organic" in the sense that the bulk of its mass is carbon-based substances such as wood, fiber, paper bits, plant debris, and the like.  ADC is also highly mineralized with crushed stone, soil, dust, plaster, drywall, paint fragments, pharmaceuticals, glass bits.  ADC's small particle size and embodied moisture mean it starts turning into methane as soon as it is buried the day after it is used to cover the garbage.  Most of ADC's methane escapes from its shallow grave.

So ADC is not diversion from landfilling at all, it is landfilling.  A landfill operator admitted as much at the October 10 Compost Summit meeting in Sacramento when, as the sole defender of ADC in a room full of clean compost operators, he said "If I cover the garbage with 6 inches of soil, it stays 6 inches even after it is buried.  But if I use 12 inches of ADC to cover the garbage, it reduces after burial to less than 6 inches, so ADC saves space."  

The missing mass is largely the escaped methane, along with water vapor and CO2 plus lots of other VOCs.

Many observers are now agreeing that the California ADC scam amounts to a massive consumer fraud.  I do not use the term "massive" lightly.  In 2006 the amount of ADC landfilled was 8.4 million cubic yards, or 2.6 million tons.  (Source:  "Organics Summit:  Background Discussion Paper"  California Integrated Waste Management Board, Oct. 10, 2007)  I leave it to you guys to figure out how much CO2 and methane this volume translates into.  I do know that it's now a truism in our field to say that "landfills are the largest anthropogenic sources of greenhouse gases."

So you folks doing your emissions trading workshops should be warning your attendees about these kinds of fraudulent activities.  Unfortunately, the solid waste management field is full of this kind of mind and material pollution right now.  Maybe you need a real recycler as part of your team.  I nominate Eric.

Dan Knapp
Urban Ore, Inc.
A reuse and recycling company in Berkeley since 1980

On Oct 24, 2007, at 11:18 AM, Eric Lombardi wrote:



Re: your “Carbon Trading and Offsets” webinar, (which is fantastic!!) I wanted you to be aware that the GrassRoots Recycling Network ( launched a new national education campaign at the NRC in Denver last month called “Garbage is NOT Renewable Energy”.   I have attached our one page handout, and there is more about the campaign on the GRRN website at  


Our goal is to help people understand that garbage-based energy is not green energy, and that when folks buy carbon offsets, they can do it right and they can do it wrong since tax breaks and “green energy” designation has been given to the wrong technologies (bury/burn).   We have done our research and found many options for purchasing carbon offsets that DON’T support the incinerator or landfill industries.   For those that say landfill methane capture should be incentivized and rewarded, we say bullshit, methane generation in landfills needs to beeliminated and that capture systems should be required and added to the cost of doing business. 


Since this campaign of ours is new, we are open to questions, criticisms, etc… but especially helpful SUGGESTIONS on how we can get the word out that not all carbon offset programs are the same!   Let’s all support truly green energy paths, and not this crazy world of garbage-based energy sources.


Thank you all,




Eric Lombardi

Executive Director

Eco-Cycle Inc


GrassRoots Recycling Network


"If you're not for Zero Waste, how much waste are you for?"  ECO-CYCLE - join us, support us, celebrate life!  Click to join and donate for the next big idea.


-----Original Message-----
zwia@no.addresscom [mailto:zwia@no.addresscom] On Behalf OfGary Liss
Wednesday, October 24, 2007 11:15 AM
To: OrganicsOutOfLandfills@no.addresscom;;;;;
zwia@no.addresscom;; p2@no.address
Cc: Gil Friend; Gary Liss
Subject: Fwd: webinar - Coming To Grips With Carbon, 10/25


Apologies for Cross-Postings

Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 03:24:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gil Friend <gfriend@no.addresscom>

carbon webinar banner 

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Series host: Gil Friend, CEO, Natural Logic

Remaining dates: October 25, November 1, November 8
Time:  All sessions begin at
1:00pm ET (12:00pm CT, 11:00am MT,10:00am PT)
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Carbon Trading and Offsets
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TIME: 1:00pm ET (12:00pm CT, 11:00am MT, 10:00am PT)

Panel Discussion: Future Outlook for Carbon Management
DATE: Thursday, November 8
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DATE: Thursday, October 25
1:00pm ET (12:00pm CT, 11:00am MT, 10:00am PT)
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Presented by: Malcolm Lewis, President, CTG Energetics

Carbon Trading and Offsets
DATE: Thursday, November 1
1:00pm ET (12:00pm CT, 11:00am MT, 10:00am PT)
With AB 32 carbon trading regulations coming on line in
California, carbon trading in the United States will move from voluntary to economically driven. This session will address what you'll need to know to develop your trading strategy and implement it profitably. (And to understand the debate over whether offsets represent efficient capital allocation or modern indulgences). Presented by: Adam Davis, President, Solano Partners

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DATE: Thursday, November 8
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Join our panel of experts to look over the horizon at the future of carbon management and climate change issues, including: regulatory directions; business strategies; and prospects for new technologies.
Panelists: Gil Friend, Kyle Tanger, Malcolm Lewis, Adam Davis

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About the presenters

Gil Friend is president and CEO of Natural Logic, Inc., a sustainability consulting firm helping clients build economic advantage through exceptional environmental performance. A systems ecologist and business strategist with 35 years experience in business, communications and environmental innovation, Friend combines broad business experience with unique content experience spanning strategy, systems ecology, economic development, management cybernetics, and public policy. Tomorrow Magazine called him "One of the country's leading environmental management consultants -- a real expert who combines theoretical sophistication with hands-on, in-the-trenches know-how."

Kyle Tanger is principal of Clear Carbon Consulting. He manages numerous GHG and energy projects with Fortune 50, Federal, and Non-Profit clients. Kyle has managed the inventory efforts of multiple clients with combined emissions totaling in excess of 60 million metric tons CO2. Mr. Tanger served as a peer reviewer for the World Resources Institute and World Business Council for Sustainable Development's Greenhouse Gas Protocol, contributed extensive written comments to multiple guidance documents for GHG registries, and has presented at international GHG conferences. He has worked extensively to create tools that measure financial performance of climate mitigation strategies and offset portfolios.

Dr. Malcolm Lewis, P.E., President of CTG Energetics, has over 30 years of experience in engineering design and analysis of building energy-using systems. He has been the engineer of record for over 25 million square feet of new construction and renovation projects for public and private sectors. Specialized experience with the introduction of innovative technologies into buildings and design processes; since the mid-1990s his practice has focused on the design of "green buildings." He fuses his expertise in energy- efficiency and green buildings to lead his firm's practice in carbon emissions reduction. He has served as an adjunct Professor in the UCLA School of Architecture, and he holds a Doctor of Engineering degree from
Dartmouth College.

Adam Davis is President of Solano Partners, Inc., a consulting firm focused on environmental economics and conservation finance issues. Prior to founding Solano Partners, Adam served as Director of the Environment Division for EPRIsolutions, a consulting firm owned by the Electric Power Research Institute. Adam also co-founded and served as Principal at Natural Strategies, Inc., a management consulting firm working with companies to integrate sustainability principles into business strategy. Core clients included British Petroleum (Solar division), John Hancock Financial Services, Lowe's (home improvement stores), Southern California Edison, Genencor International, and the State of
California(Cal EPA).

Carbon Neutral Learning™
Natural Logic
PO Box 119   Berkeley, California   94701

Just announced: Natural Logic is proud to co-sponsor
the Netherlands America Business Exchange Innovation Program

Presenting "The Future of Innovation" with Natural Logic CEO Gil Friend and senior executives from Google/YouTube, Sun Microsystems, Scale Venture Partners, Band of Angels, McKinsey, Hewlett Packard, RiOS and NASA (November 15, 6:30 PM). Details and registration

Organized by The Netherland America Business Exchange of Northern California

Visit our new web site for news of other upcoming Natural Logic events!

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