[GreenYes] Re: 9 new messages in 4 topics - digest

[Neil Seldman <nseldman@no.address>]

Eric, my sense is that smaller waste to energy plants are more  
economical than large ones. The maximum economy of scale for  
efficiency is about 300 tpd. The maximum scale for profits is 3,000 tpd.

I fight small plants too, but at least when these are proposed the  
community does not have to commit the entire waste stream.

Large ones are easier to fight however because so many more people  
are affected directly by high costs and environmental pollution.

neil
On Feb 10, 2007, at 4:32 AM, GreenYes group wrote:

>
> GreenYes
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes?hl=en
>
> GreenYes@no.address
>
> Today's topics:
>
> * 1 month SustainabilityForum.com - Thank you for your support - 1  
> messages, 1
> author
>  http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> fdbda39b5119e492?hl=en
> * which is greener - HDPE or PET? - 4 messages, 4 authors
>  http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> 7d9d87febf4eaf20?hl=en
> * FW: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET? - 3 messages, 2  
> authors
>  http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> 8ed9f5f760f644ae?hl=en
> * yet another burn-the-resource technology - 1 messages, 1 author
>  http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> d1ab68f7517eb23?hl=en
>
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
> TOPIC: 1 month SustainabilityForum.com - Thank you for your support
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> fdbda39b5119e492?hl=en
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 4:24 am
> From: "Fabian"
>
>
> Dear GreenYes,
>
> SustainabilityForum.com celebrates its first ever anniversary!
>
> The forum has been in existence for a month now and I would like to
> take this opportunity to thank the GreenYes newsgroup for
> their fantastic support.
>
> We already have 120 members and are growing constantly. There will be
> exciting changes to the forum in the near future and we currently
> organising the first ever meeting of members somewhere in London to
> discuss the future development of the forum.
>
> Thank you for the support so far and I hope to see you in the forum.
>
> Fabian
>
> www.sustainabilityforum.com/forum
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
> TOPIC: which is greener - HDPE or PET?
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> 7d9d87febf4eaf20?hl=en
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
>
> == 1 of 4 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 8:14 am
> From: "Eric Lombardi"
>
>
> I have been asked by a major food producer and packager which plastic,
> HDPE or PET, would be better for them to use.  They were wondering
> whether or not anyone has done a life-cycle assessment comparing the
> two?   I think this is an important and timely question
> considering the moratorium on "bioplastic bottles" that some  
> (including
> Eco-Cycle) have called for.
>
> Any help in answering this would be appreciated, and if you have any
> valuable feedback on this, please post it for the list to see as well,
> Eric
> Eric LombardiExecutive DirectorEco-CycleBoulder,  
> CO303-444-6634www.ecocycle.org
>
>
>
> == 2 of 4 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 10:34 am
> From: "Reindl, John"
>
>
> I don't know the specific answer to this question, but I think that  
> an environmental valuation approach can help, such as done by Jeff  
> Morris using the EPA LCA model to estimate life cycle impacts (both  
> positive and negative) and then data on the financial costs and  
> benefits to those impacts.
>
> It sounds like the inquiry has come from a firm that would have the  
> capability to pay for such a study. I could give you some names of  
> other consultants who could do this work along with Jeff.
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address] 
> On Behalf Of Eric Lombardi
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:15 AM
> To: greenyes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
> I have been asked by a major food producer and packager which  
> plastic, HDPE or PET, would be better for them to use.  They were  
> wondering whether or not anyone has done a life-cycle assessment  
> comparing the two?   I think this is an important and timely  
> question considering the moratorium on "bioplastic bottles" that  
> some (including Eco-Cycle) have called for.
>
> Any help in answering this would be appreciated, and if you have  
> any valuable feedback on this, please post it for the list to see  
> as well,
> Eric
>
>
>
> Eric Lombardi
> Executive Director
> Eco-Cycle
> Boulder, CO
> 303-444-6634
> www.ecocycle.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> == 3 of 4 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 11:51 am
> From: "Pat Franklin"
>
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> It's a little more complicated than just determining the upstream and
> environmental impacts.  There are certain requirements for certain  
> beverages
> that make one resin type better than another.  Peter Anderson can  
> probably
> address this issue.  David Cornell would definitely be able to shed  
> some
> light on the subject.  I'll cc him on this email.  Don't know if  
> he's on
> this listserve, but if he responds I'll forward his email to you  
> and the
> listserve.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
>
> Patricia Franklin
>
> Executive Director
>
> Container Recycling Institute
>
> Washington, DC 20036
>
> 202.263.0999
>
> www.container-recycling.org <http://www.container-recycling.org/>
>
> www.bottlebill.org <http://www.bottlebill.org/>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address]  
> On Behalf
> Of Eric Lombardi
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:15 AM
> To: greenyes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
>
> I have been asked by a major food producer and packager which  
> plastic, HDPE
> or PET, would be better for them to use.  They were wondering  
> whether or not
> anyone has done a life-cycle assessment comparing the two?   I  
> think this is
> an important and timely question considering the moratorium on  
> "bioplastic
> bottles" that some (including Eco-Cycle) have called for.
>
> Any help in answering this would be appreciated, and if you have any
> valuable feedback on this, please post it for the list to see as well,
> Eric
>
> Eric Lombardi
> Executive Director
> Eco-Cycle
> Boulder, CO
> 303-444-6634
> www.ecocycle.org
> </p
>
>
>
>
>
> == 4 of 4 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 12:52 pm
> From: "Rod Muir"
>
>
> Eric;
> Can you clarify that.
> Is this producer able to use(equal amount/wgt of) either and wishes  
> to know which has lower footprint if you will.
> Thanks
> Rod
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Pat Franklin
>   To: 'Eric Lombardi' ; greenyes@no.address
>   Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:51 AM
>   Subject: [GreenYes] Re: which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
>   Eric,
>
>
>
>   It's a little more complicated than just determining the upstream  
> and environmental impacts.  There are certain requirements for  
> certain beverages that make one resin type better than another.   
> Peter Anderson can probably address this issue.  David Cornell  
> would definitely be able to shed some light on the subject.  I'll  
> cc him on this email.  Don't know if he's on this listserve, but if  
> he responds I'll forward his email to you and the listserve.
>
>
>
>   Pat
>
>
>
>
>
>   Patricia Franklin
>
>   Executive Director
>
>   Container Recycling Institute
>
>   Washington, DC 20036
>
>   202.263.0999
>
>   www.container-recycling.org
>
>   www.bottlebill.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> --------
>
>   From: GreenYes@no.address  
> [mailto:GreenYes@no.address] On Behalf Of Eric Lombardi
>   Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:15 AM
>   To: greenyes@no.address
>   Subject: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
>
>   I have been asked by a major food producer and packager which  
> plastic, HDPE or PET, would be better for them to use.  They were  
> wondering whether or not anyone has done a life-cycle assessment  
> comparing the two?   I think this is an important and timely  
> question considering the moratorium on "bioplastic bottles" that  
> some (including Eco-Cycle) have called for.
>
>   Any help in answering this would be appreciated, and if you have  
> any valuable feedback on this, please post it for the list to see  
> as well,
>   Eric
>
>   Eric Lombardi
>   Executive Director
>   Eco-Cycle
>   Boulder, CO
>   303-444-6634
>   www.ecocycle.org
>   </p
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
> TOPIC: FW: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> 8ed9f5f760f644ae?hl=en
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
>
> == 1 of 3 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 2:56 pm
> From: "Pat Franklin"
>
>
> David Cornell was kind enough to respond to the question asked by  
> Eric---
> Which is greener -  HDPE or PET?  .I'm forwarding his response.  
> Hope this
> helps.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> Patricia Franklin
>
> Executive Director
>
> Container Recycling Institute
>
> Washington, DC 20036
>
> 202.263.0999
>
> www.container-recycling.org
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: David Cornell [mailto:dcornell@no.address]
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 12:47 PM
> To: Pat Franklin
> Subject: RE: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
>
> Pat,
>
>
>
> The question of which resin will include at least three aspects.
>
>
>
> First.  What is the product to be packaged and what are the  
> requirements?  A
> liquid or dry product?  What barrier requirements exist for the  
> package?
> What fill temperature requirements?  How large of a package?  Is  
> the package
> to be handleware or not?  Does the package need to be clear or will  
> it be
> colored?  Is transparency important?  All of these are the standard
> functionality and appearance questions.
>
>
>
> Second. What is the cost?  How much will the resin costs vary over  
> time?  Is
> the filler planning to make its own package?  How many bottles per  
> year are
> planned?  How economically sized is the bottle fabrication plant?   
> Will the
> bottles be filled near the fabrication plant or shipped?  How many  
> bottle
> sizes and shapes?  What are the special attributes of the bottle  
> that change
> the cost profile?  All of these are standard economic questions.
>
>
>
> Third.  What is the environmental profile?  What issues are most  
> important?
> PET and HDPE have somewhat similar attributes on a per pound  
> basis.  But an
> important key is the bottle weight.   PET bottle may be lighter  
> weight than
> a HDPE bottle of the same volume.    The comparison needs to be  
> done on
> designed bottles, not just on the resin.  Both resins are  
> recycled.  Both
> can be safely burned or buried.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pat Franklin [mailto:pfranklin@no.address]
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:53 AM
> To: 'David Cornell'
> Subject: FW: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
> David,
>
>
>
> I forgot to cc you on this email.  I hope you will help us out with  
> this
> question.  If you're not on the Greenyes listserve, I'll forward your
> comments.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> Patricia Franklin
>
> Executive Director
>
> Container Recycling Institute
>
> Washington, DC 20036
>
> 202.263.0999
>
> www.container-recycling.org
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>
> From: Pat Franklin [mailto:pfranklin@no.address]
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:52 AM
> To: 'Eric Lombardi'; 'greenyes@no.address'
> Subject: RE: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> It's a little more complicated than just determining the upstream and
> environmental impacts.  There are certain requirements for certain  
> beverages
> that make one resin type better than another.  Peter Anderson can  
> probably
> address this issue.  David Cornell would definitely be able to shed  
> some
> light on the subject.  I'll cc him on this email.  Don't know if  
> he's on
> this listserve, but if he responds I'll forward his email to you  
> and the
> listserve.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
>
> Patricia Franklin
>
> Executive Director
>
> Container Recycling Institute
>
> Washington, DC 20036
>
> 202.263.0999
>
> www.container-recycling.org <http://www.container-recycling.org/>
>
> www.bottlebill.org <http://www.bottlebill.org/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address]  
> On Behalf
> Of Eric Lombardi
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 11:15 AM
> To: greenyes@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
>
> I have been asked by a major food producer and packager which  
> plastic, HDPE
> or PET, would be better for them to use.  They were wondering  
> whether or not
> anyone has done a life-cycle assessment comparing the two?   I  
> think this is
> an important and timely question considering the moratorium on  
> "bioplastic
> bottles" that some (including Eco-Cycle) have called for.
>
> Any help in answering this would be appreciated, and if you have any
> valuable feedback on this, please post it for the list to see as well,
> Eric
>
> Eric Lombardi
> Executive Director
> Eco-Cycle
> Boulder, CO
> 303-444-6634
> www.ecocycle.org
> </p
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.32/677 - Release Date:  
> 2/8/2007 9:04 PM
>
>
>
>
> == 2 of 3 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 12:50 pm
> From: "M.Simons"
>
>
>> designed bottles, not just on the resin.  Both resins are  
>> recycled.  Both
>> can be safely burned or buried.
>
> I'd like to hear more on this statement/have it better defined.
>
> How does one define "safely" burned or buried?
>
> Is he saying that no toxic gasses or other byproducts are produced  
> upon
> burning of PET or HDPE?
>
> --
> MS
>
>
>
>
> == 3 of 3 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 5:08 pm
> From: "Pat Franklin"
>
>
> The safely burned raised a flag for me too....
>
>
> Patricia Franklin
> Executive Director
> Container Recycling Institute
> Washington, DC 20036
> 202.263.0999
> www.container-recycling.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GreenYes@no.address [mailto:GreenYes@no.address]  
> On Behalf
> Of M.Simons
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:50 PM
> To: Pat Franklin
> Cc: 'GreenYes'; dcornell@no.address
> Subject: [GreenYes] Re: FW: [GreenYes] which is greener - HDPE or PET?
>
>
>> designed bottles, not just on the resin.  Both resins are  
>> recycled.  Both
>> can be safely burned or buried.
>
> I'd like to hear more on this statement/have it better defined.
>
> How does one define "safely" burned or buried?
>
> Is he saying that no toxic gasses or other byproducts are produced  
> upon
> burning of PET or HDPE?
>
> --
> MS
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.32/677 - Release Date:  
> 2/8/2007
> 9:04 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
> TOPIC: yet another burn-the-resource technology
> http://groups.google.com/group/GreenYes/browse_thread/thread/ 
> d1ab68f7517eb23?hl=en
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
>
> == 1 of 1 ==
> Date: Fri, Feb 9 2007 3:15 pm
> From: "Eric Lombardi"
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> This one is small, but in my mind the "downsizing" of WTE  
> technologies is
> our worst enemy.  I'm sure the economics of this approach aren't  
> viable, but
> that hasn't stopped the powers-that-be in the past.
>
>
> <http://www.eponline.com/stevens/eppub.nsf/ 
> d3d5b4f938b22b6e8625670c006dbc58/
> e77ebb160d2cb4428625727b00683ee3?opendocument>
> http://www.eponline.com/stevens/eppub.nsf/ 
> d3d5b4f938b22b6e8625670c006dbc58/e
> 77ebb160d2cb4428625727b00683ee3?opendocument
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ====================================================================== 
> ========
>
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