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County Wide Solid Waste Advisory Committee
November 13, 2003
Henry Wolsmann Blanche Girardin
Glenn Irby Gary Debo
Barbara Newman Denise Gainer
Dr. Ronald Ney Allan Hewitt
Bob Fegers David Crowe
Leonard Wheeler Jeff Cooper
Absent: Carol Rogers
Eric Klienbach Joseph Klimek,
Startech Environmental Corp.
Leo Vaughn Monica Scott, Orlando Sentinel
Terri Staniec, Covanta Lake
Chairman Henry Wolsmann called the meeting to order at 9:05 a.m. The
meeting was advertised appropriately in the Lake Sentinel for the Lake County
Landfill, WMFO Breakroom, Tavares, Florida.
Sandy Minkoff, Lake County Attorney, presented information on the Sunshine
Law and the Public Records Law, both of which are in the Florida
Prior to his presentation, Mr. Minkoff extended an invitation to the members
to attend 1 of 3 seminars presented by his office and the city attorney
offices for all elected and appointed board members. The seminars will be held in
different locations throughout the county in February. In-depth information
on the Sunshine Law and Public Records will be provided. The members will
receive an invitation to this event.
Mr. Minkoff reported that many years ago, some government boards and
committees held pre-meetings to determine final resolution of an issue prior to the
public meeting. The legislature first, the people through the Constitution
and the courts determined that public business must be done in a public forum.
It is not just the vote that is important but the how and the why. Every time
two or more members of this committee meet, the requirements of the Sunshine
Law must be met. The requirements are: The meeting must be open to the
public in a handicap accessible facility, reasonable notice must be given to the
public and minutes must be taken and transcribed into writing in a reasonable
period of time. A meeting does not require a quorum so two people is all
that is required. Two or more members participating in other meetings on a panel
would require advertising. A telephone conference between two members
constitutes a meeting. Internet chat rooms, instant messaging, voice mail and
e-mail can be a meeting if it goes two ways. If a staff member acts as a
go-between on an issue, this is a Sunshine Law violation. Our state attorney takes
the Sunshine Law very seriously and will bring charges for violations.
Consequences for violations include civil fines, criminal penalties including up to
six months in jail and personal responsibility for the cost for litigation.
Any action taken by the committee done in violation of the Sunshine Law does
not count and must be redone.
Leonard Wheeler asked about the law if members are together in social
situations. Mr. Minkoff stated that it is not a problem if there is not any
discussion of public business.
Hank Wolsmann asked if he should open the meeting by asking if the meeting
was appropriately advertised and asking for a copy of the notice. Mr. Minkoff
stated that this would be a good idea.
Commissioner Hanson stated that some committee chairmen do ask at the
beginning of the meeting whether the meeting had been advertised and some do not.
She asked if we could have all of the county committees add this notice to the
top of the agenda.
Mr. Minkoff stated that this was a good idea and he would suggest it to Mr.
Hank asked if todayâs meeting had been advertised appropriately and was told
that it was. Hank said that this would be a good time for introductions to
Commissioner Hanson asked if she could talk with any member at any time
because she is not a voting member. Mr. Minkoff said that this is acceptable.
Dr. Ney asked if he could copy other committee members if he finds articles
on the Internet. Mr. Minkoff suggested that he copy staff and ask that it
be sent to other members rather than sending it directly.
Hank asked if he received something in the mail from another member if it
should be sent to staff. Mr. Minkoff replied yes and used this as an opening
to discuss the Public Records Act. Public Records have a state issued
retention schedule. He suggested the following rules be followed by committee
members in order to comply with the Public Records Act:
Â Assume everything you receive pertaining to the committee is a
Â Assume everything you receive from staff is a duplicate and can be
Â Assume that anything received from someone else is an original and
send it to staff.
One example of a pitfall to these rules would be someone discussing notes
they had written on the agenda and another person at the meeting writing a
comment on the agenda. It then becomes public record and should be given to
He suggested that if members have questions concerning the Public Records
Act they call the County Attorneyâs office for assistance.
Leonard Wheeler stated that he had e-mailed and called Mr. Klimek of
Startech Environmental Corporation regarding making todayâs presentation and asked
what would constitute a public record in this exchange.
Mr. Minkoff stated that the e-mail and any response would be a public
record. He suggested that he copy staff who would comply with the Public Records
Blanche stated that the Department had started a Master File System six
months ago and that all documents would be available at the administration
Mr. Minkoff stated that if a committee member kept a document and was asked
for it by the public or the press they would be required to share it.
Dr. Ney asked if he sent a request for a disc would the request and the disc
need to be sent to staff and was told that it would.
Dr. Ney asked if he copied a document from a government agency would it be
considered a public record. Mr. Minkoff stated that it might be a public
record if he brought it home and it pertained to this committee.
Mr. Minkoff reported that at times private companies become subject to the
Public Records Law because they become so entwined with the government that
the courts look at them as if they are public.
He stated that this is one of the issues between Lake County and Covanta.
The Judge ruled that Covanta is subject to the Public Records Law.
Mr. Minkoff completed his presentation and left the meeting.
Glenn Irby came into the meeting and introduced himself.
Hank Wolsmann stated that a quorum was now present and asked for a motion to
approve the minutes of the July 11th meeting. A motion was made and
Commissioner Hanson asked for a correction regarding a comment she made
about the recycling of clothing. She had stated that old clothing can be recycled
and was corrected by staff that the county is currently not doing this
Joseph Klimek of Startech Environmental Corporation was introduced. Mr.
Klimek stated that his company headquarters, manufacturing plant and
demonstration site are located in Connecticut. The company manufactures plasma
Mr. Klimek stated that Startech Environmental Corporation uses a technology
called plasma, which operates at extremely high temperatures created by
electricity. The system is a large refractory lined vessel. The volume is
filled with gas (air, argon, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and a non-stop arc is
struck inside the vessel, which creates a thermal area that operates in the
6-8,000 degree temperature range. . Any gas that can be ionized is used because an
ionized gas has the ability to transmit electricity. The hottest spot is in
the system is 30,000 degrees. The system has the ability to melt anything put
into it. If the material is organic in nature, the process will immediately
attack the molecular structure and rip it into its elemental components. The
system restructures the elemental components into a fuel gas. The trash put
into the system is taken apart and reformed into a gas made up of hydrogen
and carbon monoxide joined together along with other elements attached. This is
similar to propane with less punch but for every standard cubic foot of gas
it creates about 300 btuâs of energy. Mr. Klimek gave the following example.
If you process a tire weighing 20-25 pounds, one pound of the tire will
create 60 cubic feet of gas. This process allows municipalities to dispose of
hazardous, domestic and medical waste without separating the waste stream. In
addition to the gas, there is also a molten material, which separates into
metal and glass. The metals can be drawn off and sold to metals businesses and
the glass, which becomes black obsidian stone, can also be sold for a variety
of uses. The gas can be used to generate electricity and it is also rich in
hydrogen. There is a minimum of 50% hydrogen, which can be used to fuel
vehicles. Another use for the hydrogen is a fuel cell, a device that allows energy
to be developed in a chemical process. Waste material is a commodity and it
requires a technology to transfer the material from its present state to a
Mr. Klimek stated that landfilling and incineration are the current solution
for waste disposal and may remain as such until this new technology is
tested and becomes an accepted alternative.
Mr. Klimek reported that this technology has been sold to Poland, which has
large quantities of fertilizer chemicals, which cannot be landfilled but must
be destroyed. This technology is being used to convert it into a usable
The initial objective of Startech Environmental Corporation was to provide a
solution for the disposal of various types of hazardous waste around the
world including the destruction of chemical weapons.
Mr. Klimek reported that his company has designed single units, which can
handle 100 tons per day. They are currently bidding for municipalities
processing 300-500 tons per day, which will require 3-5 units, providing
flexibility for maintenance and varied waste streams. Liquids, gases and solids can be
fed into the system simultaneously.
A video demonstrating how the system operates, brochures and independent
evaluations from environmental companies were provided to the committee.
Another feature of the system is a mobile configuration. A mobile
configuration is being developed using two 18-wheelers, which go directly to asbestos
clean-up sites and process it immediately.
Dr. Ney asked what end product results from the processing of asbestos and
was told that it is melted into blocks of obsidian stone, which is no
The system is currently being used in Japan and the end products created
from the obsidian stone include street pavers, fireproof insulation and
fireproof wall panels.
Startech built a system for the Army to process materials from a chemical
weapons cleanup project. The system had to operate robotically, remotely and be
interlocked because of the material involved.
The system currently operates with one person loading the material into the
system and one person at the console who is able to look into the vessel as
the material is being processed.
Mr. Klimek stated that the larger the system the more economical. A system
processing 25 tons per day would cost 20 to 22 cents per pound or $200 per
ton. 300 tons per day would cost $60 per ton.
The benefit to utilizing this process is that a salable commodity is
produced. Mr. Klimek stated that large producers of industrial waste are interested
in having an on-site system, which gives them the beneficial use of the end
product and the assurance that the material is being disposed of properly.
Mr. Klimek stated that on October 23rd, the USEPA promulgated a rule change
regarding the RCRA laws. Producers of material that can be converted into a
usable commodity can now consider it a feedstock and not a RCRA waste. The
rule is expected to close in February.
Advantages to the system are no residual, the ability to take any type of
waste including industrial wastes at a higher tipping fee, household hazardous
waste, medical waste and pharmaceuticals,
Another market Mr. Klimek mentioned is e-waste. He stated that they are
currently processing e-waste for the Army, which is the executive agency for the
Dept. of Defense. They have an official program to gather this material and
dispose of it.
Dr. Ney asked if the system processes raw sewage and was told that it does.
Dr. Ney stated that this could eliminate the need for sewage treatment
Dr. Ney asked about the disposal of radioactive waste. According to Mr.
Klimek, there are 3 levels of radioactive waste â low, medium and high. The
system can process low-level waste, which greatly reduces the volume but not the
radioactivity. The waste can then be stored more easily. Once the system
processes radioactive material, it is dedicated to that purpose.
He stated that medical waste is different in that it uses only material with
a short half-life. It must be kept for a certain period of time and then
it is considered a normal liquid for processing.
Blanche Girardin asked the chair for the floor in order to ask the following
series of questions:
Question: What is the largest quantity has the company processed and what
is the cost for the entire system including construction, feeders, etc.?
Answer: The cost is 22 cents per pound end to end based on producing a fuel
gas. It does not include the cost of what is done with the gas created.
Question: How many existing systems does the company have that have been
permitted in the United States?
Answer: The Company currently has permitted engineering and demonstration
systems that are not full scale processing systems. The company also has
contracts for 4 systems. There are 20 proposals in place with municipalities
and private companies in the United States and Canada. A number of them are
for tire processing, which will be utilized by municipalities.
Question: How many systems are permitted under ISO (International Standards
Organization) in Europe?
Answer: One is South Africa, which is starting at 50 tons per day and going
up to 200 tons per day. Taiwan, Japan and Poland have all been fully
Question: How much gas is produced from one pound of wet, household
Answer: Between 12 and 16 cubic feet of gas per pound.
Question: What is the liability for hazardous materials?
Answer: The system is irreversible destruction technology. Everything
placed into the system comes out in a completely changed state, which eliminates
the hazardous content.
Question: Have any ISO agencies or the EPA determined if your waste is
Answer: Yes. Papers are available on the findings.
Question: What is the nature of the polishing systems, the nature of the
hazardous waste and the cost of disposal?
Answer: Once it is processed and the material gas is leaving the vessel,
any particulate in the gas stream goes into a cyclone and goes back into the
system for reprocessing. There is no effluent. The gas exits the vessel at
2400 degrees Fahrenheit and has the ability to go through a heat recovery boiler
and create steam or the thermal content of the gas can be used beneficially.
The gas is cooled and if there are any acid components, they are measured
and a neutralizer is injected into the system to hold the ph level at 7. This
is totally neutral and becomes a salt, which is benign. Two gallons of
salt-water effluent is generated per ton. The next step is refining the gas by
putting it through a series of filters including baghouse and hepa. The
debris collected goes back through the system. A charcoal stage is added if
needed for heavy metals.
Question: What is the cost of a 100-ton per day unit used for wet garbage?
Answer: The cost would be between 10 and 12 million dollars, which would
vary depending on what is done with the gas. A system to process 300 tons per
day would cost 20 million dollars and would require 3 units.
Terri Staniec of Covanta asked what the 20 cents per pound would cover and
was told that this is a total turnkey cost including the cost of financing.
Mr. Klimek stated the company has a computer input sheet, which takes the
type of waste produced, the type of industry, cost per kilowatt-hour, labor
rates and cost of financing and does a cash flow analysis over a 10-15 year
David Crowe asked what the power demand to operate at 100 tons per day would
be. Mr. Klimek responded that it would depend on the type of material
processed. For a typical MSW system, 4 megawatts per day would be needed. Tires
would require up to 6 megawatts. He stated that the system has a complete
feedback loop so if the loads are varied, the system adjusts the power of the
David Crowe asked what type of plasma gas is used and was told that for the
most part, air is used.
Hank Wolsmann asked about a backup if the system goes down. Mr. Klimek
responded that there is a small, backup power unit, which brings the system down
safely. He also stated that the system is designed to operate around the clock
or whatever hours are needed which cannot be done with an incinerator. The
system loses less than 1% of its thermal energy per hour so if it is shut
down for 10 hours, 10% of the energy is lost. It only takes 20 minutes to
bring the system back up to temperature.
Barbara Newman asked how long the company had been in operation. Mr. Klimek
stated that Startech Environmental was started in 1995 but it had been in
the developmental stages for 4-5 years prior to that.
David Crowe asked about other items in an MSW stream such as arsenic. Mr.
Klimek responded that the scrubbing system is designed to take care of all of
the halogens and acid gases and is designed to measure and to neutralize in
the gas-polishing phase of the operating system.
The question was asked what is done with mercury and heavy lead. The
materials are processed in the system and every three months the unit is changed
out. A 55-gallon drum of hazardous charcoal is produced. The charcoal filter
for a 100-ton unit costs $1500.
David Crowe asked the end price for the product and was told that it depends
on the buyer. Mr. Klimek stated the prices for the product are more stable
in Japan at approximately 4 cents per pound for the stone.
Hank Wolsmann stated that had been a good discussion but if a more in-depth
discussion of the process is needed, it should be done by the sub-committee.
He stated that the presentation was excellent and whether Lake County
utilizes the system or not, it is an excellent technology. He asked that the
minutes of the sub-committee be distributed to all members.
Leonard Wheeler said that he had received materials about the Startech
system and had given them to staff. He stated that he had made a promise to the
committee that he could obtain funding for this system. According to Mr.
Wheeler, this system could address the 400 tons of fertilizer runoff in Lake
Okeechobee. He stated that there is $8 billion in restoration money available
for the disposal of the runoff.
Mr. Wheeler also stated that he is interested in bringing industry to Lake
County and asked Mr. Klimek if they would consider relocating here. Mr.
Klimek stated that a search is currently under way in Florida for a manufacturing
Mr. Wheeler asked Mr. Klimek if they had ever received any pre-mitigation
grants from FEMA. He stated that they have not but that they are in touch
with Homeland Security.
Mr. Wheeler asked if the company currently has any projects to remediate
existing landfills and turn them into a suitable project and if so at where and
at what cost.
Mr. Klimek responded that the company is currently working with a landfill
contractor in Riverhead, Long Island, New York who has the responsibility to
reclaim a landfill. He is extracting the metals and selling them, shaking
out the soil and selling it to make asphalt and everything else goes through
the plasma converter to create energy. The landfill is approximately 60 feet
deep and 35-40 acres and they are 10% into the project.
Blanche asked Terri what the incinerator capacity at Covanta is currently.
Terri responded that it is 175,000 tons.
Blanche reported that she had figured that at 200,000 tons, the cost would
be $60 million for equipment with an $80 tipping fee, not counting the cost of
energy or the cost of special waste disposal. In order to make this
profitable, Lake County would have to become a treatment storage disposal facility,
accepting hazardous waste, storing it until treatment and disposing of
residual by-products. She asked what incentives to the county are offered to become
a hazardous waste processor. She also asked Allan Hewitt if the county would
become a TSD if we take in this type of waste and was told yes.
Dr. Ney stated that Lake County has the same chemicals in our landfill that
would be processed in this system including mercury. Blanche stated we do
not have mercury or hazardous waste in our landfill and our only by-product is
Mr. Klimek stated that we must understand the community at large and the
present scheme of disposal that is acceptable to understand the liabilities
involved. If there are waste producers in the community without correct
solutions for disposal, the county has to protect the public and it is difficult to
put a value on safety. If the county provides a solution for the industries
in the area, other industries will come here.
David Crowe stated that there are very few large quantity generators in Lake
County and only one historic superfund site.
Mr. Klimek asked how medical waste is handled in Lake County and was told
that it is taken out of county for processing. It was also stated that the
garbage haulers in Lake County had funded an excellent education program on
Dr. Ney asked if the EPA had declared feedstock non-hazardous and if and how
they address anything going out as a gas or mercury trapped in a filter
Mr. Klimek stated that the EPA rule, which is being changed, requires the
waste producer to identify what is being produced and how the company plans to
process it beneficially. It does not go into the chemical characteristics
of the waste stream but to the theory that a waste material produced is being
processed to create something of value.
David Crowe asked if non-hazardous recyclables are being pulled and was told
Mr. Klimek went on to report that this rule change had come from the
refinery industry which produces petcoke, a material of little value but difficult
to dispose of. When petcoke is processed, it produces significant amounts of
hydrogen, which is required by a refinery in order to give added value in the
octane level of material produced. The refineries needed a technique of
recycling and using it as a feedstock to produce something of value. Other
industries have the same issue and there are now technologies available to process
material, which creates a beneficial new material. Prior to this, the
materials were considered hazardous by RCRA.
Dr. Ney asked Mr. Klimek to e-mail information on the EPA rule to staff.
Hank Wolsmann again stated that the subcommittee should address these
issues. He expressed appreciation for the presentation and the level of
understanding it had provided to the committee.
Mr. Klimek asked if anyone knew which state is the largest user of hydrogen
and was told Florida. He stated that hydrogen is transported from Louisiana
and loses 30% of its volume in transport. Mr. Klimek feels that Florida
should become a self-generator of hydrogen. His company is creating a second
product called star cell, which is a device that takes gases that are generated
and removes the hydrogen.
Terri Staniec of Covanta said that there has been misinformation in the
newspaper regarding Covanta and she would like to make clarifications. One big
issue is the ash that Mr. Gregg is planning to convert into asphalt. A great
deal of the profitability of that project depends on Lake County. In the old
service agreement, if Covanta reduces the amount of ash coming to the
landfill, they would get a bonus. Mr. Gregg is entitled to 100% of the ash through
his contract with Covanta. Mr. Gregg is counting on Lake County paying him $1
million to take the ash. Mr. Greggâs facility, which is not yet permitted, is
set up to take ferrous metals out of the ash. He is then going to sell the
ash to other landfills at a profit for daily cover. He will charge Lake
County to take the ash and charge them again to buy it back for cover.
Leonard Wheeler asked about a news broadcast he had seen which stated that
Mr. Gregg owned the ash in the landfill.
Blanche asked that the staff not comment on this question, as an agreement
has not been reached with Covanta.
Blanche reported on the status of the Vetiver Grass paper, which was
submitted to the Department of Environmental Protection. The information was
presented as a technology, with Lake County asking to participate in a pilot
project. Lake County would provide services in kind. DEP has not addressed it to
date but we should receive notification after the holidays. If the project were
approved, DEP would give the project to the University of Florida to manage.
Copies of the new Organizational Chart for the Department of Environmental
Services were handed out. It has been presented to the County Manager and
Finance and no comments have been received. Allan Hewitt corrected the section
placement of a newly created position in Water Resources. A corrected copy
will be e-mailed to committee members.
Barbara Newman asked if there is a written mission statement for the Solid
Waste Advisory Committee. She would like to know what the boundaries are for
David Crowe said that there is the enabling Resolution, which gives the
purpose of the committee.
Copies of the Resolution will be e-mailed to all members.
Blanche Girardin reported that the county is currently looking at all the
committees and the possibility of combining some of them.
Commissioner Hanson commended Blanche for the outstanding job she has done
assisting with the Wekiva Basin issue with her extensive background in
geology. She also commended Jeff Cooper and the rest of the staff for the work they
have done in resolving the Covanta issue.
Blanche commended Commissioner Hanson for all her hard work on the Wekiva
Hank asked for a brief update on the Wekiva Basin issue.
Commissioner Hanson reported that up to this point there have been a lot of
presentations and education provided by a variety of agencies. She stated
that the only decision other than the boundary, which includes part of Mt.
Dora, Eustis and Clermont, was a vote to approve 4 of the recommendations of the
SJRWMD. They were mostly regulations that would be extended from the current
Wekiva Basin into this study area. The committee should finish shortly
after the first of the year. There is still a lot to be done. The cities are very
active and John Benton, a committee member representing the City of Eustis
is also participating. A lot of the issues are economic as well as
environmental. Eustis and Mt. Dora have put an infrastructure in place that they have
to pay for. Commissioner Hanson said they are looking at design standards such
as cluster development, which she supports because a lot of land around
developments can be preserved if they are clustered. There is an argument that
people will not accept smaller lots even when the have conservation area
around them but she feels this is a marketing issue. Tough guidelines will be in
place in these areas and they have been assured that the recommendations by
DCA will not be to downzone anything, which has been a concern.
Blanche stated that it is the first time that the governorâs direction is to
task the committee to make a decision based on best science. She stated that
all 27 people on the committee have worked very hard to learn some difficult
concepts and to make appropriate decisions. She feels it will stand as an
example in this state of how to make the science relevant.
Commissioner Hanson said that there has been a lot of education back to the
state agencies that have really not understood the amount of regulation the
local governments had to protect the environment in that area, the amount of
regulation in place today or the amount of acreage that the state already
Blanche said she feels the agencies did not really understand how protective
Lake County is and how much work they have done.
Hank stated that if the subcommittee feels a need to meet, please do so and
bring the information back to the committee.
Barbara said that she wants to make sure the committee stays on task and not
use staff time with things that are not pertinent.
Jeff Cooper reported that the law firm representing Lake County has split
but that that the same attorneys will continue to handle the respective issues.
One group of attorneys will handle litigation and another group will handle
the negotiations so that each has a single purpose with no conflict of
Jeff stated that the negotiations with Covanta for a new waste disposal
agreement are being handled by Sandy Minkoff, Bill Neron, Cindy Hall, Sara
LaMarche, Melanie Marsh, Chris Brauder from Gray Harris and himself. He also
reported that Gary Debo, Charlie Goen and David Crowe, Environmental Services staff
members, have provided invaluable assistance in providing the necessary
information for the negotiations.
Jeff reported that a current newspaper article incorrectly reported that
there are 200,000 pounds of ash. The correct figure is 92,000 pounds of ash.
Blanche said that Gary Debo really helped a great deal by explaining how we
handle the ash, what we do with the ash and what the cover is. Charlie Goen
provided the numbers used to generate the revenues. David Crowe worked very
hard preparing legal statements for the attorneys and getting all of the
needed documentation together.
Commissioner Hanson stated that an article in one newspaper gave all the
credit for the negotiations to Commissioner Cadwell. She stated that this is not
true and that he had very little to do with the negotiations. She stated
that a lot of people have been working on this issue for quite some time and
that basically it is the staff that deserves the credit.
Jeff reiterated that the negotiations have been a collaborative, team
effort. He stated that Cindy Hall who has been with the County for a short time and
staff members who were not actually a part of the negotiations also played a
very important role. Everyone worked hard to make it come together.
Jeff reported on the Covanta trial in New York. He stated that Sandy
Minkoff did an extraordinary job representing Lake County. He stated that Mr.
Minkoff was unbelievably articulate, in complete command of all information
including the dollars, tonnages and legal concepts.
Jeff stated that because the county had gotten so close with the
negotiations, it was agreed that all litigation with Covanta be stopped. There is no
firm agreement in place at this time but the group has met with banking and
finance people and the rates have dropped if this moves forward. The Judge gave
Covanta and F. Brown Gregg until December 18th to submit final briefs. There
was supposed to be a final closing on December 3rd. In the meantime, the
county is working on the final negotiations and hope to have a final agreement
by the end of the year.
Barbara said that everything the committee has heard about the teamwork
reinforces what she had said in the past about this being the best department in
Leonard Wheeler requested copies of the material, which Mr. Klimek brought
Barbara reminded everyone about the cost of printing documents and suggested
that it be e-mailed for the members to print if desired.
Barbara wished everyone a happy holiday.
The meeting adjourned at 11:20am.
The next meeting will be Thursday, January 8, 2004 at 9:00am in the Solid
Waste Operations (WMFO) Breakroom
Submitted by CJ Eaton
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