GreenYes Archives

[GreenYes Home] - [Thread Index] - [Date Index]
[Date Prev] - [Date Next] - [Thread Prev] - [Thread Next]


Re: [greenyes] Re: film recycling


Mike,

Thanks for the clarification, though some of the management structures you suggest have some similar organizational challenges as do government-owned enterprises.

I don't think the history on cooperatives and local development corporations is that great around the world. Changes in how you run them can make them a bit more efficient and a bit less corrupt than some of the past illustrations, but this is by no means a guaranteed outcome. Nor is it clear that the incentives in these types of organizations are sufficient to address the really complex and global challenges that businesses sometimes take on. If you are serious about your models, it would be useful to develop case studies on past failures and present more clearly why things would be different using your approach.

One thing I noticed in your descriptions is that many of the organizational models you propose require a tremendous amount of willpower by thousands of people to take actions that differ from the price signals they receive in the marketplace about efficient (measured in an economic sense) behavior. This makes their chances of success slim indeed -- unless they are mandated -- which generates a host of other problems.

Your use of equity in structuring the corporations will ensure better alignment of incentives. However, difficult questions regarding who gets equity, for what, and how much remain on the table.

Why not work instead to ensure the price system generates more accurate signals about externalities (would shift industry towards cleaner methods) and transportation costs (would shift industry towards somewhat more local production)? This approach would be more likely to succeed, and in a smoother fashion, than the strategies you suggest.

Any of your models need to address some core challenges:

-Why will people voluntarily give their time and resources to this type of organization?
-Will that organization be able to identify the key skills it needs and pay appropriately in order to get them?
-How will it earn sufficient revenues to survive?
-How will conflicts of interest be managed?
-Will the organization be able to innovate and change, to ensure growth, adaption, and long-term survival? Or, does it simply constitute a service delivery mechanism for long-established and unchanging basic functions?

I didn't see these types of issues addressed in the links you provided. Michael Jensen of the Harvard Business School has been thinking about coordination, control, and management of complex organizations for decades. You may not agree with all of his conclusions, but he does frame the challenges of organizational structure in an interesting and useful way. "Foundations of Organizational Strategy" is one of his overview books and may be a useful starting point.

-Doug Koplow

_______________________________
Doug Koplow
Earth Track, Inc.
2067 Massachusetts Avenue - 4th Floor
Cambridge, MA 02140
www.earthtrack.net
Tel: 617/661-4700
Fax: 617/354-0463

CONFIDENTIAL
This message, and all attachments thereto, is for the designated recipient
only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private
information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you
is prohibited.

>>> "Mike Morin" <mikemorin@no.address> 05/16/05 12:18PM >>>

I'm not talking and writing about state-owned businesses. I advocate economic democracies where people come together of their own free will and their commitment to what is right (i.e. right livelihood). You all can learn more by going to:

http://www.culturechange.org/Morin.html &
www.yahoogroups.com/group/Reg_Coop_Comm_Dev


Working for peace and cooperation,

Mike Morin

----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Koplow
To: mikemorin@no.address ; greenyes@no.address ; dan@no.address
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Re: film recycling


Mike,

If the entrepreneur is such a myth, what's with all of those venture capitalists pumping billions of dollars their direction every year. Don't think it's pure altruism; nor would these folks be punting their money on a myth.

Take a look at the biggest US companies in 1920. 1940. 1960. Even 1980. See how many of them are still around. Now look at the biggest companies of today and see how many of them are relatively new. You will see a great deal more churn in who is the biggest and most profitable in our capitalist system than you see in countries where state-owned firms hold sway. Of course these "Corporate Conglomerate Capitalists" as you so lovingly refer to them, try to protect and expand their position, just like the state-owned firms to. However, the key point is that they often fail, and are unseated by one of those little mythical entrepreneurial ventures that according to you have no real role in the economy.

-Doug Koplow

_______________________________
Doug Koplow
Earth Track, Inc.
2067 Massachusetts Avenue - 4th Floor
Cambridge, MA 02140
www.earthtrack.net
Tel: 617/661-4700
Fax: 617/354-0463

CONFIDENTIAL
This message, and all attachments thereto, is for the designated recipient
only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private
information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you
is prohibited.

>>> "Mike Morin" <mikemorin@no.address> 05/15/05 11:28PM >>>

>In regards to "one of the problems with Capitalism". If my idea will not work, then I should fail and lose my investment; that is the beauty and great >wisdom of Capitalism. That is why successful entrepreneurs and businesses do their homework and learn all they can about product viability before >huge investments are made. In my need for funding, whether public or private, even more scrutiny should be (and would be) given to the idea. >Rarely does any product or business succeed without great commitment of research, money, time and effort.

There is very little to no wisdom in the modus operandi of Capitalism. Corporate Conglomerate Capitalists are at a distinct advantage to your so-called mythical "entrepreneurs". Like I wrote in my previous post, some individuals can take the risk and do the homework. Most folks can't. So what we're left with is a society where rich corporations control the land grant (e.g. Ohio State University) and other educational institutions and use their wealth to fatten their minority holdings at the expense of the many.

That is not even to mention the externalities that the CCC's eschew. What I proposed along the lines of recycling organic waste would be beneficial to do. How come it is not a reality?

What are the realities with respect to recycling efforts? Dare I mention the need to reduce and reuse?


Working for peace and cooperation,

Mike Morin
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Weisenbach
To: greenyes@no.address
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 1:24 PM
Subject: [greenyes] Re: film recycling



"film" as we refer to it in recycling, means thin flexible plastic; as opposed to rigid containers. Plastic grocery bags, retail bags, stretch wrap (used on shipping pallets -- basically the same stuff as Saran Wrap), plastic mailing envelopes (both LDPE and HDPE -- a.k.a. Tyvek) and many flexible food packages are examples of recyclable plastic film. Rigid containers made of HDPE (#2) and LDPE (#4) plastics have a higher melt point and must normally be recycled separately from film products of the same polymer.

"Photographic Film" is actually polyester; as are the plastic printing plates that we use on our offset printing presses, shiny metallic balloons, many potato chip bags, and thousands of other photographic and packaging uses. Polyester film *can* be recycled, although it might be considered a contaminant in a load of grocery bags and stretch film.
Polyester film is PET, yes like beverage bottles. For recycling, PET film is not compatible with PET containers.
Side note: "Mylar" is DuPont's brand name for their polyester film used in various types of packaging.
In lieu of recycling, the energy in PET film can be recovered when the film is used as fuel (our printing plates along with our waste inks are burned in a cement kiln used in the production of concrete).

I will find out how important it is for PET film to be separated from HDPE and LDPE when recycled into plastic lumber products.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to "one of the problems with Capitalism". If my idea will not work, then I should fail and lose my investment; that is the beauty and great wisdom of Capitalism. That is why successful entrepreneurs and businesses do their homework and learn all they can about product viability before huge investments are made. In my need for funding, whether public or private, even more scrutiny should be (and would be) given to the idea. Rarely does any product or business succeed without great commitment of research, money, time and effort. When I helped develop the Recycling Market Development Grants here in Ohio, we purposefully structured a $ matching requirement for the requesting entities. The approval process involves both the public and private sector to study the viability. As it should be. One of the most useful and productive roles of government is to assist businesses -- or just stay out of the way. The American form of Capitalism is the most productive and successful structure in the history of mankind.

Every day I risk all that I own, the well-being of my family, and the livelihood of all my employees, to pursue a dream.

Responsibly,Dan Weisenbachwww.RecycledProducts.com Columbus, Ohio

On Sun, 15 May 2005 11:33:14 -0700, Mike Morin wrote:
I don't know what you're referring to when you
> say plastic film. Isn't photo-chemical processing obsolete? Anyways,
> your query makes me think of one of the problems with Capitalism.
> That is, unless you can afford to lose it, you probably shouldn't
> take the risk. Some people can afford it, most can't.
> Working for peace and cooperation,
> Leland in Eugene
> MM
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dan Weisenbach
>> To: greenyes@no.address ; Samantha MacBride
>> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:06 AM
>> Subject: [greenyes] post-consumer, bag & film recycling
>>
>>
>> I am designing a re-usable container for the household or office
>> collection of plastic film for recycling. My prototype has a
>> small, one-way opening to stuff bags and plastic film so it
>> compacts as you fill the container (patent pending). This could
>> be used for residential curbside collection (with container
>> exchange), office building recycling programs, and/or the
>> container could be mailed/shipped to a recycler. All I need now
>> is funding to make this system a reality. Please let me know if
>> this is of any interest to your communities. I would love to
>> take this project to next steps!
>>
>> Dan Weisenbach
>> www.RecycledProducts.com
>> Columbus, Ohio




[GreenYes Home] - [Date Index] - [Thread Index]
[Date Prev] - [Date Next] - [Thread Prev] - [Thread Next]