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Re: [greenyes] Sticker Shock


Is it going to be very difficult to effectively stigmitize SUVs. Is it going
to be VERY VERY VERY difficult to do so.

Yes

Is there any reason for anyone to disagree with Chris's down to earth
assessment?

No.

But, if we can't even do that...if we in fact wind up INCREASING TAX BREAKS
for business leasing of only the very largest megaton tanks, if the issue of
Global Warming doesn't even get discussed during the Presidential campaign,
then I think that we have to confront some realities here.

If we can't even do that, we have no chance of ever making a real dent in
the magnitude of the problem.

Which means we have to each sit down and make a decision for ourselves.

Do we want to fight as effectively and aggressively as we can to achieve
substantive gain, with the very real risk of getting nothing.

Or do we want, in order to feel good about ourselves, fritter around the
edges of what America in the 21st century has reduced us to, without any
chance of achieving anything that will matter in order to achieve something
that doesn't even register on the radar screen...bumper stickers of tulips
on the back of Sherman Tanks.

That's our choice.


Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Cloutier" <ccloutier@no.address>
To: "Peter Anderson" <anderson@no.address>; "Eric Lombardi"
<eric@no.address>; "Jenny Gitlitz" <jenny.gitlitz@no.address>; "greenyes"
<greenyes@no.address>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: [greenyes] Sticker Shock


While Peter's sentiments are admirable, it is hard to see how these things
"should be stopped". Bans? Shame? How do we stop these things? This genie
has
been let out of the bottle a long-time ago. Absent a command-and-control
environmental regime that seems politically unthinkable in the current
climate, how does such stopping happen?

There are clear market forces at work now that indicate the car market is
changing - Prius sales up over 120% same month last year, 18 month waiting
list for the same, 12 month waiting list for new Toyota hybrid SUV, 15
months
for Lexus hybrid SUV, SUV's unable to sell off the lot or used, SUV used
listings way up from three months ago - and changing in ways that are
encouraging. It seems gas has finally reached the point at which it begins
to
affect lifestyle and vehicle choices.

GHG-trading as a scheme to fund efficiency efforts is also growing. MA has a
program that allows retailers of efficient products to accrue and sell
credits, many nuclear utilities are investing their "carbon funds" into
efficiency measures to gather, and then sell, GHG credits. In what is
increasingly a world that is more decentralized and predicated upon
open-source principles, bringing that opportunity to the individual seems to
make sense.

My biggest concern is that the price for the SUV owners are being charged
for
this externality seems too low. Wouldn't we rather see these SUV owners pay
something for what they owe? After all, there is no evidence that this is
helping increase SUV sales.

Chris Cloutier
D&R International
1684 Selby Ave.
Saint Paul, MN 55104
651.644.4017
651.644.4989 (f)

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Anderson [mailto:anderson@no.address]
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:21 PM
To: Eric Lombardi; 'Jenny Gitlitz'; 'greenyes'
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Sticker Shock

Gosh I didn't think this was going to get so much back and forths, but I
strongly disagree with Jenny. Let me explain why I feel this way.

The difference is that there are some things that we do that are part of the
base environmental cost of living/doing business, then there are others that
are outside the pale of venality/stupidity...SUV Hummers being only the most
graphic example. By definiiton in a strategic sense, the latter are things
that should be stopped and not ameliorated. Damping something that never
should have been done in the first place is never better than pushing to
stop it.

Here we are, then, if this is not laughed out of the ball park, on the cusp
of SUV owners finally about to feel the pain of stigma for their outrageous
choice, and someone is going to hand them a get of of jail/guilt card.

That's the very last thing we want to do...combined with the fact that, if
we want to get techie, there is a very BIG difference between e.g. the SO2
trading for acid rain, which is looked to as showing how good trading is,
and carbon trading around the world. The utilities were all in this
country, their emissions were localized in a few very large and highly
regulated plants, and things could be checked and verified to make sure
intentions were followed by real actions....carbon trading shares none of
that and is VERY squishy.

We're on the path to being horseswaggled and trivialized, so that we will
effectively be doing very little, while essentially accomplishing nothing,
yet feeling santimonious as we march off to our own funeral. The thought
turns my stomach.

If our fate is confined to twittering around the edges of 5 ton SUV hyrbrids
with cutsie bumper stickers, we might as well close up shop now.



Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Lombardi" <eric@no.address>
To: "'Jenny Gitlitz'" <jenny.gitlitz@no.address>; "'greenyes'"
<greenyes@no.address>
Cc: "'Peter Anderson'" <anderson@no.address>
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [greenyes] Sticker Shock


Jenny,

That's what my first thought was ... it's just a carbon-trading (CT) scheme
for individuals, similar in many ways to allowing the dirty power plants to
keep on running. If it's good for them, why not us? Then again, some
people think carbon-trading isn't good. I guess I would say that CT is OK
only if it's used as a "bridge" that allows sunk investments to recovered
and requires a timeline for old tech to retire and new tech to come on-line.

Eric

Eric Lombardi
Executive Director
Eco-Cycle Inc
303-444-6634
www.ecocycle.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Jenny Gitlitz [mailto:jenny.gitlitz@no.address]
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:49 PM
To: greenyes
Cc: Peter Anderson
Subject: Re: [greenyes] Sticker Shock

How is this any different from other GHG market trading mechanisms? That it
targets the wallets of individual drivers instead of corporate power plant
coffers?

Yes, it sounds ridiculous for Hummer owners to buy these stickers to appease
their guzzling guilt, but for many of us who are stuck driving 10-year old
cars because we can't afford the $22,000 sticker price of a Toyota
Prius--much as we'd like to buy one--this low-cost sticker program might be
one small way for us to encourage a few small-scale alternative energy
projects.

The question is, does the bumper sticker scheme somehow detract from
national efforts to raise CAFÉ standards or implement other broad
conservation policies?

--Jenny

Jennifer Gitlitz
Research Director, Container Recycling Institute

Home Office:
2 Pomeroy Ave.
Dalton, MA 01226
Tel. (413) 684-4746
Mobile: (413) 822-0115
Fax: (413) 403-0233
Email: jgitlitz@no.address

Please note the new address for CRI¹s main office:
Container Recycling Institute
1601 North Kent St., Suite 803
Arlington, VA 22209-2105
Tel. (703) 276-9800
Fax: (703) 276-9587
www.container-recycling.org
www.bottlebill.org


On 4/12/05 1:34 PM, Peter Anderson at anderson@no.address wrote:

> GLOBE AND MAIL
>
> Honk If You Love Your SUV
>
> Pricey bumper stickers give the owners of gas-guzzlers licence to drive,
> while still being friendly to the environment
> By WILLIAM LIN
> Saturday, April 9, 2005 Page A15
>
>
> WASHINGTON -- The United States may have withdrawn from the Kyoto
Protocol,
> but a Pennsylvania company says Americans can still fight carbon dioxide
> emissions without leaving home -- by paying as much as $80 for a bumper
> sticker.
> Benven LLC, run by a team of University of Pennsylvania graduate students,
> boasts that its bumper stickers take the equivalent of 350 cars off the
road
> for a year. Its product, the TerraPass, allows drivers to counteract their
> gas-guzzling cars' emissions by paying for clean-energy projects. In
> exchange, vehicle owners get a clean conscience and a one-year pass for
> their bumper that identifies the vehicle as pollution-free.
> "If you think of the rest of Americans, they want to be nice to the
> environment. But they want a vehicle to get around in," said Tom Arnold,
the
> company's chief operating officer. "With TerraPass, you can keep driving
the
> car and still be responsible."
> The passes sell for $30 to $80, depending on how much gas the vehicle
uses.
> For instance, it would take $80 to offset a Hummer's annual emissions, Mr.
> Arnold said.
> TerraPass pools the sales and funds clean-energy projects, such as
windmills
> in California and cow-manure digesters to control methane emissions. The
> Philadelphia-based company said that to date, it has "erased" 1.8 million
> kilograms of carbon dioxide emissions.
> TerraPass also buys credits on the Chicago Climate Exchange, a market for
> trading greenhouse-gas-emissions credits. TerraPass buys and retires them,
> helping to cover the costs of energy projects.
> About 450,000 kilograms of carbon dioxide credits have been purchased so
> far -- nearly $1,200 worth, the company said. Mr. Arnold said the company
> has spent more than $7,000 on emission-reduction projects in total.
> "...
> "...
> "...
> "...
>
>
> _________________________
> Peter Anderson, President
> RECYCLEWORLDS CONSULTING
> 4513 Vernon Blvd. Suite 15
> Madison, WI 53705-4964
> Ph: (608) 231-1100
> Fax: (608) 233-0011
> Cell: (608) 698-1314
> eMail: anderson@no.address
> web: www.recycleworlds.net
>
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> is covered by the Electronic Communications
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> or copying of this communication is strictly
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